How Close Is Too Close?

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Define "common sense". It means doing it the way you think it should be done, correct?

No, it means doing things the correct way... not the stupid way.

[JPA Cate]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Oh come on.... let him use an anchor buoy... I mean how bad can it be... He's not going to attach it with 16mm line!!...
when you get tangled in it simply start your engine, slip into gear and let the shaft do the rest. The next fine calm day dive under and remove any remnants.

Mr. Fuss,

I certainly hope that was intended as a joke. If it was advice it is very poor, running over even light line while you're motoring is likely to wind it up like a ball around your prop shaft, and the engine stalls, and won't run till you get it off. It gets so tight, it can dislocate the shaft, which is why some people use line cutters. Polypro, by floating is worse than something that sinks, too.

Some friends caught a polypro line, which, of course stalled the engine, and drifted into a bridge on the incoming tide, and she, his wife, tried to fend off and damaged her hand, requiring several surgeries.

We caught our dinghy painter once, in the Santa Barbara Channel, iirc, and it took a number of dives to finally free it, something that would have been more difficult and dangerous in colder water.

Ann

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

No, it means doing things the correct way... not the stupid way.

Again, doing it the way you think it should be done.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Again, doing it the way you think it should be done.

If you want to get technical and scientific about it, “common sense” is really a byproduct of culture, and that is largely shaped by our shared reality of us all being humans. It’s sociology & biology-101 that norms evolve within any community of people. They are are almost never created by people with guns and badges — that is simple enforcement of significant norms, codified as laws.

This discussion is the perfect example of how the culture of a community shapes behaviour of the individuals within a group, usually for the common utility of the group (although not always). We call this behaviour “common sense”, b/c it is common to most people in the group.

Those who break with this behaviour usually find them on the outside of the social group. Or in more serious cases, talking with someone "wearing a badge and a gun."

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Those who break with this behaviour usually find themselves on the outside of the social group. Or in more serious cases, talking with someone "wearing a badge and a gun."

Or stuck with their idiotic anchor ball buoy wrapped around their own prop.

[buzzstar]

Despite all of the repartee, there can be no hard and fast rule about how close is too close. Boats at anchor are virtually all different. Imagine a dozen, say Catalina 46s, (I am not aware that the designation exists) in the same anchorage even if the anchorage would hold 13. Each will almost certainly behave differently at anchor, I hope there is not need to attempt to recite the possible and probable differences. Good sense (I am avoiding the use of "common") is all there is to go by. Local knowledge, knowledge of usual practices, wind and tide prediction, and always a spot of luck, help, but there are so many variables, multiplied by 12, that perfection and certainly are impossible. I believe things work out most of the time, but not all of the time.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

............ This discussion is the perfect example of how the culture of a community shapes behaviour of the individuals within a group, usually for the common utility of the group (although not always). We call this behaviour “common sense”, b/c it is common to most people in the group.

Those who break with this behaviour usually find them on the outside of the social group. Or in more serious cases, talking with someone "wearing a badge and a gun."

So you're talking about "go along to get along"? The concept of bullying anyone who disagrees with the majority? That's a shame.

Setting an anchor trip line and buoy is a common practice, recognized and explained and diagramed in the major boating publications. Many people here have used this technique when appropriate.

Perhaps where you boat there are no fallen trees, rocks or other debris on the bottom waiting to snag your anchor, but in some cruising grounds this is pretty common. This is why we carry a trip line and buoy. We don't use it every time we anchor but we do use it when the risk of snagging the anchor is high.

Let's address some of your other "concerns":

"Anchor trip buoys are a danger to other boaters and in particular people in dinghies at night." Have you ever seen crab pot buoys? In my part of the world, they are everywhere in season. These are similar to trip line buoys but smaller and harder to see. Like trip line buoys, they have a vertical line from the buoy to the bottom. These are perfectly legal and there can be dozens in an anchorage in addition to the hundreds you may see on the waterway on any given day. As a boater, it's your job to avoid them. A trip line buoy is no different but typically larger and easier to see.

"Trip line buoys reduce the number of boats that will fit in an anchorage." BS. You shouldn't be anchoring so close to another boat that you swing over top of its anchor. What if they want to leave? How are they going to pull their anchor up if your boat is on top of it?

"A trip line will make your anchor less effective." If you know how to rig it, that's not the case.

"You will get your trip line fouled in your own prop." Again, if you know how to rig it, that's not the case.

"A trip line and buoy is antisocial." Well, that's just dumb. Not much more I can say.

----------------------------------------------------

Personally, I am not a member of the herd. I am not intimidated by some Internet "Know it all". Sometimes I get good ideas from boating forums, sometimes I provide what I believe is good advice to other members, but there's lot of BS to wade through.

You and a few others might want to consider being a little nicer and more polite when posting. Otherwise, you stand the chance of having only yourselves to argue with.

[barnakiel]

Except that one does not have to 'get along' in the first place.

If you are a sheep then maybe you should not be sailing.

One should be brave and outspoken and present their view of things. And read many replies and think about what others have to say. Listen and learn.

Think. Apply. Watch. Think. Improve. Apply. ...

Life is quite simple. But not if you insist on 'getting along'.

b.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rwidman

So you're talking about "go along to get along"? The concept of bullying anyone who disagrees with the majority? That's a shame.

You clearly have no understanding of how community and culture actually works. It is far more subtle, and far deeper than your simplistic portrayal. Ever heard of mores, community and cultural norms? If you don’t understand that different communities have different norms, well… what can I say.

Originally Posted by rwidman

Setting an anchor trip line and buoy is a common practice, recognized and explained and diagramed in the major boating publications. Many people here have used this technique when appropriate.

Perhaps where you boat there are no fallen trees, rocks or other debris on the bottom waiting to snag your anchor, but in some cruising grounds this is pretty common. This is why we carry a trip line and buoy. We don't use it every time we anchor but we do use it when the risk of snagging the anchor is high.

Perhaps you should actually read what I, and everyone else, has actually said instead of imposing your assumptions. Everyone who has responded to you has said trip lines can and should be used in locations where they are warranted. I’ve used them, I carry two trip lines on a buoy … I’ve written exactly this. What part of my previous posts do you not understand?

Originally Posted by rwidman

Let's address some of your other "concerns":

Again, if you actual took the time to read you’d know that most of these are not “my” concerns. I’ll respond to the ones I raised. I agree with many others, but they are not “mine.”

Originally Posted by rwidman

"Trip line buoys reduce the number of boats that will fit in an anchorage." BS. You shouldn't be anchoring so close to another boat that you swing over top of its anchor. What if they want to leave? How are they going to pull their anchor up if your boat is on top of it?

This is a basic physics/geometry fact. Get out your geometry sent. Draw circles. How many can you fit on a page if the circumferences cross the focus of neighbouring circles? Now how many can you fit in if they don’t?

Get it?

There is nothing wrong with a boat floating over your anchor. As for leaving in this situation, it has never ever been an issue. The odds of having a neighbouring boat obstructing your ability to leave is quite small. And in those few circumstances it’s easy to actually talk to your neighbour about it.

From your comments it seems you either don’t anchor often, or don’t anchor with others. If the latter, then great . Doesn’t matter what you do. Throw out all the floats you want. It only matters in busy/small anchorages — which is unfortunately where most boaters anchor.

Originally Posted by rwidman

"A trip line and buoy is antisocial." Well, that's just dumb. Not much more I can say.

Placing yourself over everyone else is nearly the definition of “antisocial”.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

You clearly have no understanding of how community and culture actually works. It is far more subtle, and far deeper than your simplistic portrayal. Ever heard of mores, community and cultural norms? If you don’t understand that different communities have different norms, well… what can I say.



Perhaps you should actually read what I, and everyone else, has actually said instead of imposing your assumptions. Everyone who has responded to you has said trip lines can and should be used in locations where they are warranted. I’ve used them, I carry two trip lines on a buoy … I’ve written exactly this. What part of my previous posts do you not understand?



Again, if you actual took the time to read you’d know that most of these are not “my” concerns. I’ll respond to the ones I raised. I agree with many others, but they are not “mine.”



This is a basic physics/geometry fact. Get out your geometry sent. Draw circles. How many can you fit on a page if the circumferences cross the focus of neighbouring circles? Now how many can you fit in if they don’t?

Get it?

There is nothing wrong with a boat floating over your anchor. As for leaving in this situation, it has never ever been an issue. The odds of having a neighbouring boat obstructing your ability to leave is quite small. And in those few circumstances it’s easy to actually talk to your neighbour about it.

From your comments it seems you either don’t anchor often, or don’t anchor with others. If the latter, then great . Doesn’t matter what you do. Throw out all the floats you want. It only matters in busy/small anchorages — which is unfortunately where most boaters anchor.



Placing yourself over everyone else is nearly the definition of “antisocial”.

You don't know when to stop or how to post without insulting people. Your insults mean nothing to me and insulting me will not change my behavior one bit. I have thought all these things through and figured out the best plan. You don't agree - fine, you do it your way.

A better man would not feel compelled to continue the insults.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You don't know when to stop or how to post without insulting people. Your insults mean nothing to me and insulting me will not change my behavior one bit. I have thought all these things through and figured out the best plan. You don't agree - fine, you do it your way.

A better man would not feel compelled to continue the insults.

I simply responded in the same tone and manner as your post. And I pointed out your obvious errors. You are making claims that are demonstrably false (the whole geometry issue, along with your misunderstanding of how culture works). You accuse me of saying things I didn’t. You refuse to actually read what I and others have written (while imposing your own assumptions). And you seek to impose your will on the group despite the vast majority of responses offering a different perspective.

[senormechanico]

I smell a thread closing....

[Jason Flare]

Jeeee rrrrry! Jeeee rrrrry! Jeeee rrrry! Jeeee rrrrry!

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I simply responded in the same tone and manner as your post. And I pointed out your obvious errors. You are making claims that are demonstrably false (the whole geometry issue, along with your misunderstanding of how culture works). You accuse me of saying things I didn’t. You refuse to actually read what I and others have written (while imposing your own assumptions). And you seek to impose your will on the group despite the vast majority of responses offering a different perspective.

You can't give it up, can you?

I have read what you posted. That doesn't mean it's correct or that I have to agree with it. My "claims" are accurate, not "demonstrably false". One doesn't need to know geometry to anchor a boat, you just stay far enough away from other boats that you don't swing over their anchor.

Yes, some others have posted agreeing with you. So what? Others don't agree with you. Everyone doesn't have to agree.

Lastly (and I sincerely hope you can just drop this whole argument), I in no way have tried to impose anything on anyone except perhaps the thought that we are looking at many different situations and a responsible captain needs to make decisions based on the best practice for a given situation.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by rwidman

You can't give it up, can you?

I have read what you posted. That doesn't mean it's correct or that I have to agree with it. My "claims" are accurate, not "demonstrably false". One doesn't need to know geometry to anchor a boat, you just stay far enough away from other boats that you don't swing over their anchor.

It now seems obvious to me and most others, that you've never actually anchored your boat in a busy anchorage.

Yet you feel compelled to continue arguing with those of us who do it on a regular basis. I'm glad I'm in the Med.

"One doesn't need to know geometry to anchor a boat...". Really? Yikes!