Damaged anchor?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GordMay

1994 Sundeer 64: US$375,000 ➥ https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/199...er-64-8392422/

According to: https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/sundeer-64/
There were only 10 Built, bteween 1993 ➛ 1965

Yes, only nine left. Unfortunately #7 isn’t named 7of9

[Kettlewell]

That looks like a homemade Bügel. This was (AFAIK) the first of the roll bar anchors, and it was a major step forward in anchor design when it was introduced.

I think the original Bugels were galvanized like that one. Even though these were invented in the 1980s we never saw them in the USA. Back then the state of the art over here were represented by Bruce, CQR, and Danforth anchors. I think the first time I saw a Bugel in the real world was in the Caribbean in the early 2000s. Interesting it was painted white, which I used to do in the past because it greatly aids in spotting your anchor on the bottom even in murkier water. I believe that technique was popularized by Royce's Sailing Illustrated, a little pocket boat bible by Patrick M. Royce.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I think the original Bugels were galvanized like that one. Even though these were invented in the 1980s we never saw them in the USA. Back then the state of the art over here were represented by Bruce, CQR, and Danforth anchors. I think the first time I saw a Bugel in the real world was in the Caribbean in the early 2000s. Interesting it was painted white, which I used to do in the past because it greatly aids in spotting your anchor on the bottom even in murkier water. I believe that technique was popularized by Royce's Sailing Illustrated, a little pocket boat bible by Patrick M. Royce.

And somewhere in the early 90s the Delta started to appear as well.

[malbert73]

One of the reasons Mantus is so great IMO. It’s quite robust but one can easily get a replacement rollbar if need be. The bolt together anchor allows spares if absolutely needed.
No anchor is immune to bending- but IMO those that are a bit thicker than Mantus (like Manson) seem not to hold as well particularly in softer substrate, and have smaller rollbars which certainly have less lever arm to bend, but also clog. But if ones cruising grounds are predominantly rocky they would be a better choice.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I think this is a Bugel seen in Panama, but it seems to have survived relatively unscathed. However, with that fat plate I wonder how well it digs in?

Looking at the thickness of the plate I am guessing it was made in the navy yards in Norfolk. A bit of weed isn't going to bother that.

Pete

[Kettlewell]

Bent Danforth anchor thread. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ix-102849.html

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yes, only nine left. Unfortunately #7 isn’t named 7of9

You are a nerd! Love it!

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

though I have never seen a broken anchor chain. I don't recall ever seeing broken or pulled out bow cleats, though I have seen a few broken bow rollers. My conclusion is that the anchoring gear, even on ordinary production boats, is strong enough for most conditions, and even extreme conditions. The failure points are more likely to be somewhere within the anchor rode and anchor or mooring system, plus the bow roller.

This raises a corollary question. We hear over and over, starting with the windlass manufacturers, that a windlass is only used to hoist the anchor. Not to hold the anchor when anchored, not to pull the boat forward when recovering, not as a "samson post" to tie mooring lines on.


On my boat, the windlass is firmly bolted, with numerous fasteners, into the same deck construction as the cleats (although, to be fair, the cleats are 4" from the toe rail -- an exceptionally strong area -- and the windlass is more like 18" from the toe rail). The windlass itself seems immune to damage due to "non-operating" loads (loads applied by the line/chain, as opposed to loads applied by an operating motor). The motor, to me, should be capable of operating at or near locked-rotor-amps for extended times (seconds/minutes, not hours). In other words, failures due to not following those recommendations don't make sense.

For me, we routinely use the windlass to pull the boat forward (although in winds over 10-15, I'll give engine help). I've used the capstan portion as an additional point for securing mooring lines (often when rafting, where there are too many lines and not enough cleats). I typically don't use it to hold the chain at anchor, as we use a snubber which goes to a cleat (in rare instances, say a lunch break or swim call, we'll forego the snubber -- but that is naturally only done when on the boat in mild conditions).



In your walk-around-surveys, how often do you see a windlass broken off, bent, or otherwise showing signs of being the cause of the problem?

[Kettlewell]

In your walk-around-surveys, how often do you see a windlass broken off, bent, or otherwise showing signs of being the cause of the problem?

The typical windlass failure is in the motor, gears, wiring, or switches. A lot of times corrosion starts the problems because they live up forward where there is lots of seawater around at times. I have seen small windlasses pulled right out of the deck--not really a fan of ones that require you to cut a big hole in the deck. I like windlasses that sit on top of the deck and are held down by bolts. Here's a tale of a windlass ripped free: https://forums.ybw.com/threads/windl...m-hull.522663/

Not sure what is the most common failure point, but in Cartagena down in Colombia I saw lots of people fixing broken windlasses. Probably the second most failure prone piece of gear after refrigeration. They get a lot of use when you are cruising.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

The typical windlass failure is in the motor, gears, wiring, or switches. A lot of times corrosion starts the problems because they live up forward where there is lots of seawater around at times. I have seen small windlasses pulled right out of the deck--not really a fan of ones that require you to cut a big hole in the deck. I like windlasses that sit on top of the deck and are held down by bolts. Here's a tale of a windlass ripped free: https://forums.ybw.com/threads/windl...m-hull.522663/

Not sure what is the most common failure point, but in Cartagena down in Colombia I saw lots of people fixing broken windlasses. Probably the second most failure prone piece of gear after refrigeration. They get a lot of use when you are cruising.

Yup, it gets a LOT of use when cruising. We avoid paid nights (moorings or docks), and we rarely stay more than one night anywhere, so the anchor is up and down a lot. And pulling an anchor and chain off the bottom in depths to 75' is a lot of load! My "winch wench" isn't shy about using the windlass to "bounce" the anchor in her efforts to get the mud off, and that resulted in our only major failure to date -- the cross pin (a stainless roll pin) that connects the motor to the gear box sheared. I now have spares..... We also broke (more than once!) a piece of plastic that guides the chain, but it has little impact, is under $50, and is easy to replace when we get around to it. It's a discontinued (but still supported) Maxwell Liberty RC1700, which the rep says nice things about.

[David Mathis]

Numerous Danforth types still in use have been seen with bends which varied from minor to major. The shanks have been bent so severely that the flukes couldn't swivel and one had the flukes bent more than 45 degrees apart. The owners claimed they still work, maybe in a calm situation but it's hard to imagine how they could hold after the ripples turned to waves.

One time, we stopped for lunch and deployed a Danforth much too small to be used for anything other than a daytime hook for light winds. It was a little too big for a dingy but not much. The intended lunch stop turned into an all day swim then an overnight without thinking about the ground tackle. Fortunately, the scope was about 5 or 6:1. That night, the wind picked up then became a significant blow. The little anchor didn't drag but it was extremely difficult to recover the next day. The bottom was sand and the wind didn't shift so the little Danforth just kept going deeper and deeper. Had the wind shifted or the anchor got into rocks, the pull was strong enough to destroy it but for a straight pull in sand, the holding was amazing.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

This raises a corollary question. We hear over and over, starting with the windlass manufacturers, that a windlass is only used to hoist the anchor. Not to hold the anchor when anchored, not to pull the boat forward when recovering, not as a "samson post" to tie mooring lines on.

On my boat, the windlass is firmly bolted, with numerous fasteners, into the same deck construction as the cleats (although, to be fair, the cleats are 4" from the toe rail -- an exceptionally strong area -- and the windlass is more like 18" from the toe rail). The windlass itself seems immune to damage due to "non-operating" loads (loads applied by the line/chain, as opposed to loads applied by an operating motor). The motor, to me, should be capable of operating at or near locked-rotor-amps for extended times (seconds/minutes, not hours). In other words, failures due to not following those recommendations don't make sense.

For me, we routinely use the windlass to pull the boat forward (although in winds over 10-15, I'll give engine help). I've used the capstan portion as an additional point for securing mooring lines (often when rafting, where there are too many lines and not enough cleats). I typically don't use it to hold the chain at anchor, as we use a snubber which goes to a cleat (in rare instances, say a lunch break or swim call, we'll forego the snubber -- but that is naturally only done when on the boat in mild conditions).

In your walk-around-surveys, how often do you see a windlass broken off, bent, or otherwise showing signs of being the cause of the problem?

For hauling in chain, you can simply lift some chain from the bottom without pulling it taut, then letting the catenary pull the boat forward and repeat. When timed correctly, you even keep accelerating forward motion without ever loading the windlass for it.

Every windlass should have the matching chain stopper in front of it. If there is no room for it then it should be spliced from Dyneema and attached to a strong point like a cleat, never the capstan of course.

A snubber is in addition to the chain stopper, not an alternative for it

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

For hauling in chain, you can simply lift some chain from the bottom without pulling it taut, then letting the catenary pull the boat forward and repeat. When timed correctly, you even keep accelerating forward motion without ever loading the windlass for it.

Every windlass should have the matching chain stopper in front of it. If there is no room for it then it should be spliced from Dyneema and attached to a strong point like a cleat, never the capstan of course.

A snubber is in addition to the chain stopper, not an alternative for it

Due to insufficient room for a good chain stopper setup, my solution to that has been to take a bit of the slack chain after attaching a snubber and wrap it around the bitt that sits next to and just forward of the windlass. It's a strong attachment point and takes the load off the windlass in the event of a snubber failure.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Due to insufficient room for a good chain stopper setup, my solution to that has been to take a bit of the slack chain after attaching a snubber and wrap it around the bitt that sits next to and just forward of the windlass. It's a strong attachment point and takes the load off the windlass in the event of a snubber failure.

Why not a Dyneema chain stopper? Sounds like you have a strong point that is not the windlass right at hand!?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Why not a Dyneema chain stopper? Sounds like you have a strong point that is not the windlass right at hand!?

I may make one at some point, I just haven't felt the need. If the strong point were behind the windlass that would definitely be the answer, but in my situation, the geometry works fine for either the dyneema strop or giving the chain a wrap (which might be faster, plus it's one less thing to store).