Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . Swinging over someone else's anchor is not a problem. Yes, sometimes rodes get overlapped, but again, I've never seen it become a big issue.

It's happen to me maybe -- twice? In 35 years of cruising? That a chain has gone over mine or mine over someone else's. Sorting it out is simply (and is a basic anchoring skill), especially if you have an Anchor Thief:

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The only use I have for an anchor buoy is when I deploy a trip line. This is in exceedingly rare situations when I am seriously concerned about anchor fouling.

Yes, me too. But such places are generally empty, so it's a different story. You have a light on your float, right?

You can also rig a trip line without a float by using light cable ties to hold the trip line to the chain. To use, just break the cable ties.

[skyhawk]

Having only experience with small boats, I've got no experience with this topic really. I have watched several of penope's anchor test videos with great interest.
He seems to have done a great job in correlating to a holding force measurement in pounds..... the thing I've wondered though is how would you correlate that to need?...I mean how many pounds of holding force do you need?

The other part of this thread I read with interest is the long scope in crowded anchorages topic. Unless the depth over the entire anchorage area is flat/constant then knowing what your neighbor's scope is doesn't really seem all that useful to me. This is an interesting topic to me that I'll need to learn if I get into this cruising life.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You can also rig a trip line without a float by using light cable ties to hold the trip line to the chain. To use, just break the cable ties.

Yes, I've thought of that. Good idea. Long enough for highest tide, bow roller, and some extra for tailing.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You can also rig a trip line without a float by using light cable ties to hold the trip line to the chain. To use, just break the cable ties.

Shock.. Horror... Plastic pollution..

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

BUT: there are too many bays here in British Columbia that have logging debris on the bottom . A buoyed trip line is sometines essential.

Agreed. Sometimes..., but very rarely in my experience. If I think the bottom is that fouled I'll more likely look for a better spot. But I agree, sometimes it is necessary, which is why I have one ready to deploy.

Ironically (or perhaps embarrassingly -- for me ), I've never had to use any trip line I've deployed. All the times my anchor has been fouled I had no trip line out.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

It's happen to me maybe -- twice? In 35 years of cruising? That a chain has gone over mine or mine over someone else's. Sorting it out is simply (and is a basic anchoring skill), especially if you have an Anchor Thief:

Thanks. I haven't seen one. Might try and pick one up.

To be clear, I've never knowingly been involved in an anchor-rode overlay situation. I've seen it happen a very few times in anchorages over the last two decades of my sailing. Mostly I read about these things here... funny how that is .

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yes, me too. But such places are generally empty, so it's a different story. You have a light on your float, right?

In fact, every time I've deployed a trip line I've been completely alone. Busy anchorages don't tend to be challenging anchorages.

No light. Fluorescent yellow/orangey stripes, but not lit ... probably a good idea.

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You can also rig a trip line without a float by using light cable ties to hold the trip line to the chain. To use, just break the cable ties.

Yes, I've read about people doing this -- have you tried it? In thinking it through, it seems to be something that would be pretty difficult to deploy.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I agree 100% that floats are poor practice. Done.

But I don't think the analysis will work. For example, if a crabber places a trap in a legal area (not channel, not legally designated anchorage) and you foul it and cause yourself damage, that's on you. You might not like where he placed the pot, but unless it was illegal, you needed to keep clear. If you can't see it at night, don't navigate at night. If a car is parked in a foolish but legal location, you better not hit it.

I think he has no case at all. He should have avoided the float.

It's not that clear. Laying crab pots in a legal area is clearly legal. But laying a crab pot in a marked channel (say) is not, and if you cause damage to someone you will pay. The case of anchor floats is not clear one way or the other. Such a case would be decided based on the preponderance of the evidence -- expert witness vs expert witness on the question of whether it's good seamanship or not. And I think it's not unlikely that a judge might be persuaded that it's not (since it is ISN'T good seamanship).

Originally Posted by thinwater

. . . whether using a float is poor practice can depend on what book you read. If owned the float, I'd pull out a text book to defend that what I did was not imprudent and not altogether unexpected. I would say that the man who snagged my boat had every reason to believe that there could be a float within 10x water depth in front of me, and he disregarded that. . .

Yes, and if I were your lawyer, that is exactly what I would argue. But whether that is persuasive or not is another question. I would prefer to be arguing the other side where I think the case is much easier to make.


And if for some reason I really wanted to use an anchor float in a crowded anchorage despite the large weight of qualified opinion that it is unseamanlike, and discourteous -- I would be seriously concerned about liability. It is a seriously bad practice.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . No light. Fluorescent yellow/orangey stripes, but not lit ... probably a good idea.

I would strongly recommend lighting it if there is any chance another boat will appear. Even if you didn't care about the other guy (and knowing you, I'm sure that's not the case), remember that it's a TRIP LINE. Another boat fouling your float will trip your anchor out. You are as interested in that not happening, as the other guy is.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . Yes, I've read about people doing this -- have you tried it? In thinking it through, it seems to be something that would be pretty difficult to deploy.

Not in anger, but I did successfully in an experiment. It works fine. But yes, it's a bit of a faff to get attached, and then you can't adjust the chain without getting rid of it.



A float of course is easier. I do have one (with the spring-loaded reel, like SaltyMetal's one), and I have a light on the float. I need to start using it more since I am anchoring often in wild places in the rocky Northern Baltic where the sea floor is littered with boulders. I am playing anchor roulette methinks, and my anchors are expensive. Once I pulled up an electrical cable , and in order to get free, I had to haul it right up under the bows and get a line under it. If I had had a float on, I could have easily tripped the anchor without pulling up the cable. Most of these places are so wild that it is inconceivable that another boat would appear, so I think I float is OK there.



But i would use the cable tie method any place where I thought there was even a slight chance that another boat would appear.

[noelex 77]

Anchor buoys are better only deployed very occasionally. The risk of snagging another boat or your own vessel is significant. As others have noted, this can rapidly become a nightmare.

To mitigate the problems, installing a weak link in the anchor buoy line is a great help. If the buoy does foul another yacht then the weak link will break before pulling out the anchor.

A small cable tie is an ideal weak link. This should be installed as low as feasible, but where the junction between the anchor and the weak link can still be reached if the anchor is fouled. This enables attaching a rope that bypasses the weak link. Therefore the anchor (in most cases) can be pulled out backwards. This may require using the dinghy. The weak link may be at or even a bit below the waterline, but this is not a severe drawback given the rare problem of a stuck anchor.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Agreed. Sometimes..., but very rarely in my experience. If I think the bottom is that fouled I'll more likely look for a better spot. But I agree, sometimes it is necessary, which is why I have one ready to deploy.

Ironically (or perhaps embarrassingly -- for me ), I've never had to use any trip line I've deployed. All the times my anchor has been fouled I had no trip line out.

Yes, I've read about people doing this -- have you tried it? In thinking it through, it seems to be something that would be pretty difficult to deploy.

Mike, Yep, it's the time you don't deploy your safety device that you end up needing it!

You've probably seen my previous posts on my "Hidden Trip Line" strategy and this discussion of trip lines reinforces the benefits for me. Easy to deploy, unobtrusive, won't be tripped by another boat, and in the past two years of deploying it 100% of the time (which is a lot, we live on the hook) I've never had a problem or had to use it! (knock on wood).

Here it is again, I welcome comments, questions, accolades and praise!

The "Hidden Trip Line"

Step 1: Attach sturdy SS carabiners to each end of a strong floating line (dyneema floats and is stronger than polypro).

Length is determined by typical anchoring depths. I created two of these lines, one 30 feet for shallow anchorages, one 60 feet for deeper anchorages, and the two can be combined for really deep anchorages.

Step 2: When anchoring attach line to the shank nearest the head of anchor (most have a hole for this purpose. I installed a shackle on mine for this purpose). I usually know the depth where I will anchor ahead of time and have this line already attached before arrival so it's ready to go.

Step 3: Deploy rode (chain, of course) and attach the other end of the hidden trip line a couple of feet ahead of its length (for a 30 foot trip line, attach to the rode at 28 feet or so) so it will float above the chain but far beneath the surface. It only takes a second to snag a chain link with the carabiner as the rode goes by. My chain is marked at 30 foot intervals, which makes placement easy, but it's also easy to see that you're reaching near the end of the trip line length as it gets deployed.

And that's it. The trip line is out of the way and hidden below the surface. If raising anchor and it gets stuck, it's usually the anchor getting fouled and the trip line can be easily unhooked from the rode and attached to a line to free the anchor.

If the rode gets wrapped around something this trip line will probably be inaccessible, but that's much rarer than the anchor getting fouled.

We are full time cruisers in the PNW who anchor 90+% of the time. In the past couple of years since "inventing" this strategy I've used the hidden trip line 100% of the time without a problem. Thankfully, I haven't needed it yet, but it gives me peace of mind to know I won't get stuck and lose my valuable anchor if it gets fouled.

[sv_pelagia]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Step 3: Deploy rode (chain, of course) and attach the other end of the hidden trip line a couple of feet ahead of its length (for a 30 foot trip line, attach to the rode at 28 feet or so) so it will float above the chain but far beneath the surface.

SV Grace: does trip line ever/often get wrapped around chain? Why floating line?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Mike, Yep, it's the time you don't deploy your safety device that you end up needing it!

You've probably seen my previous posts on my "Hidden Trip Line" strategy and this discussion of trip lines reinforces the benefits for me. Easy to deploy, unobtrusive, won't be tripped by another boat, and in the past two years of deploying it 100% of the time (which is a lot, we live on the hook) I've never had a problem or had to use it! (knock on wood).

Here it is again, I welcome comments, questions, accolades and praise!

The "Hidden Trip Line"

Step 1: Attach sturdy SS carabiners to each end of a strong floating line (dyneema floats and is stronger than polypro).

Length is determined by typical anchoring depths. I created two of these lines, one 30 feet for shallow anchorages, one 60 feet for deeper anchorages, and the two can be combined for really deep anchorages.

Step 2: When anchoring attach line to the shank nearest the head of anchor (most have a hole for this purpose. I installed a shackle on mine for this purpose). I usually know the depth where I will anchor ahead of time and have this line already attached before arrival so it's ready to go.

Step 3: Deploy rode (chain, of course) and attach the other end of the hidden trip line a couple of feet ahead of its length (for a 30 foot trip line, attach to the rode at 28 feet or so) so it will float above the chain but far beneath the surface. It only takes a second to snag a chain link with the carabiner as the rode goes by. My chain is marked at 30 foot intervals, which makes placement easy, but it's also easy to see that you're reaching near the end of the trip line length as it gets deployed.

And that's it. The trip line is out of the way and hidden below the surface. If raising anchor and it gets stuck, it's usually the anchor getting fouled and the trip line can be easily unhooked from the rode and attached to a line to free the anchor.

If the rode gets wrapped around something this trip line will probably be inaccessible, but that's much rarer than the anchor getting fouled.

We are full time cruisers in the PNW who anchor 90+% of the time. In the past couple of years since "inventing" this strategy I've used the hidden trip line 100% of the time without a problem. Thankfully, I haven't needed it yet, but it gives me peace of mind to know I won't get stuck and lose my valuable anchor if it gets fouled.

I like it


It's basically what I do, except that I didn't think far enough to realize that the trip line doesn't need to lead all the way back into the boat.



But I have the same question as others -- why floating line? I normally use a piece of an old halyard as a trip line. I think I would prefer it to be sinking rather than floating.

[wingssail]

I have not used an anchor float in an anchorage where other vessels are present or expected. I agree that they unnecessarily constrain use of the area and use of them is rude.

Universal condemnation of them as an illegal act however is out of line, especially since leaving a crab pot anchored with a float is legal and lighting is not required.

There are places where I have anchored where a trip line seems prudent, but I try to avoid those areas. Sometimes you need to anchor there however and freeing your anchor is likely to be difficult. A trip line then is appropriate, and, of course a float.

One place where almost all of the boats, including myself, used anchor buoys, was in Fortaleza, Brazil, (and I am sure there are other similar situations) where we all were stern tied to a float with anchors set to hold us off. There is a strong surge at that marina (very strong) and winds blowing the moored boats sideways. There is a danger that a newly arriving boat will drop an anchor and back towards the float across your chain. Not only is that going to be a mess if you want to get out before they do, it could break your anchor free and allow you to bang backwards into the float or onto you neighbor. There were actually people who ran lines all the way across the marina to the other side, requiring those lines to be lowered to permit boats to come or go across them.

What happened to us in that place was almost comical. A tourist in a small motor boat came through the marina to look at the yachts. She drove right over my anchor float despite my yelling and waving my arms. The float line wrapped around her lower unit but did not get into her propeller. Then she proceeded to drive away, dragging my anchor and boat with her, totally oblivious to what she was doing. More yelling and frantic arm waving, which only attracted lots of curious onlookers, including the marina manger, who was just as powerless to stop her as I was.

I quickly released my stern lines, power cord and passerelle, and fending off the neighboring boats, was dragged out of the berth by the 16' powerboat with a 150hp motor and an oblivious operator.

I ran up my anchor chain until I was next to the speedboat, by which time she had stopped, in confusion, and was calling her husband for advice about what to do about this crazy gringo boater who was trying to run her down with his big sailboat. I got her to tilt her engine, at which point my anchor trip line dropped free and we were both released. She drove away and I re-anchored.

Despite the chaos which resulted, I continued to use the anchor buoy in that location and would do so again.

So I think the use of anchor buoys should not be subject to universal condemnation, judgment is involved.

Photo: Our anchor buoy is out of the picture to the right (upwind)

[sv_pelagia]

All this mentioning of anchor floats and crab pots...

What really bugs me are (recreational) boaters who anchor, then head out on their dinghy and place a crab trap IN THE ANCHORAGE. See it all the time here in BC.


But I guess this is thread drift....

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by sv_pelagia

SV Grace: does trip line ever/often get wrapped around chain? Why floating line?

Thanks for asking, Pelagia (and Dockhead). The floating line prevents it from snagging objects on the bottom or fouling the anchor and chain as things move around down there.

It only needs to float a couple of feet above the bottom, which is why I attach a 30 foot line somewhere between 25-28 feet from the anchor.

The line doesn't seem to get wrapped around the chain while anchored, but when the anchor breaks free of the bottom when raising it, any twist in the chain will cause the anchor to spin and the hidden trip line to wrap around the chain a few times, this almost always occurs and hasn't been a problem. (I don't use a swivel, they don't seem to work for me, including the beautifully designed Mantus)

When the hidden trip line breaks the surface and reaches the bow roller, I unhook the carabiner, unwrap the line a few times, and clip it to the bow pulpit as I raise the anchor the rest of the way. Any additional wraps usually fall when breaking the surface using slippery dyneema line.

When the anchor is home in the bow roller I unwrap the rest if necessary and attach to the horn cleat on top of the windlass so it acts as the safety line holding the anchor in the roller while under way.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Thanks for asking, Pelagia (and Dockhead). The floating line prevents it from snagging objects on the bottom or fouling the anchor and chain as things move around down there.

It only needs to float a couple of feet above the bottom, which is why I attach a 30 foot line somewhere between 25-28 feet from the anchor.

The line doesn't seem to get wrapped around the chain while anchored, but when the anchor breaks free of the bottom when raising it, any twist in the chain will cause the anchor to spin and the hidden trip line to wrap around the chain a few times, this almost always occurs and hasn't been a problem. (I don't use a swivel, they don't seem to work for me, including the beautifully designed Mantus)

When the hidden trip line breaks the surface and reaches the bow roller, I unhook the carabiner, unwrap the line a few times, and clip it to the bow pulpit as I raise the anchor the rest of the way. Any additional wraps usually fall when breaking the surface using slippery dyneema line.

When the anchor is home in the bow roller I unwrap the rest if necessary and attach to the horn cleat on top of the windlass so it acts as the safety line holding the anchor in the roller while under way.

I've used exactly this procedure when using in-line tandems, the only difference being the line is usually tied to the shackle on the tandem. It works and I have never had one tangle, though I don't think I would bother on a single anchor. (I'm not suggesting tandems. They are ONLY for very specific circumstances where anchors cannot bury.) The recovery line is actually used to take load off the primary when pulling into the roller and to board the second anchor, not for snags.