|
|
09-01-2021, 09:09
|
#106
|
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: At the intersection of here & there
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 4,852
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWave
He assumes you have 5:1 scope when you really have much more. Next morning his cockpit is in your living room.
|
Why would anyone assume that? The other boat might be using a nylon rode, and therefore more rode. Personally I try to avoid crowds - and plan for the largest practical swinging circle (from other boats as well as my own).
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 09:47
|
#107
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike OReilly
. . . But it doesn't require anywhere near "storm-force" winds (55+ knots) bring your rode fully taut. At 3, or 2:1 it would take little more than a fresh breeze (17+knots) -- unless you've got exceedingly heavy chain. . .
|
Don't forget the very important factor of depth.
Even with very heavy chain, 3:1 is uncomfortable in shallow water.
But with enough heavy chain, 3:1 might be very comfortable and safe in deep water. I try to never go below 5:1 in water less than 10 meters deep, just for the sake of catenary, if nothing else.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 18:57
|
#108
|
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 279
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
I have a ExCel and have been very happy with it and feel very confident in its setting and holding. I prefer on the hook over mooring given my expertise far with it. I’ve had it skip once in at least 12 setting and that was just noticeable prior to it catching. I haven’t had to reset yet
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 20:11
|
#109
|
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,569
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenWave
Not picking on you exclusively because others have said similar, but ...
the anchorage may be open when you get there but what about the guy who arrives at dusk and is looking for a spot? He assumes you have 5:1 scope when you really have much more. Next morning his cockpit is in your living room.
Granted your example is 5:1 but have heard in this thread that some double that.
|
Not arguing politeness of need, but remember that the first guy has a legal right to a clear berth. In other words, it is up to the second guy to keep clear. That's the way it is written and that is the case law.
|
|
|
09-01-2021, 23:57
|
#110
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater
Not arguing politeness of need, but remember that the first guy has a legal right to a clear berth. In other words, it is up to the second guy to keep clear. That's the way it is written and that is the case law.
|
Indeed, but it is the CUSTOM, and an important one, that when anchoring in a place where others may be expected to come also, that one should anchor in a reasonable way which leaves room for others. That includes avoiding grossly excessive scope, using shore ties when it is the local custom to do so, avoiding weird double-anchoring, etc. However:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodesman
Why would anyone assume that? The other boat might be using a nylon rode, and therefore more rode. Personally I try to avoid crowds - and plan for the largest practical swinging circle (from other boats as well as my own).
|
Indeed, and it's actually less hard than it looks for boats which seem to be pretty close together, to swing without conflict even on fairly diverse scope. I'm not sure I've ever once had a boat swing into me or have I ever once swung into another boat in decades of anchoring, although there were certainly dozens of times when I or someone else was nervous that we were too close together. I think it's an optical illusion in anchorages that boats seem closer together than they are (I eventually learned to stop trusting my eyes and use radar), and furthermore even very different boats on very different scope generally swing at least roughly together such that conflicts are very rare.
That being said, I don't like crowded anchorages, and the last 10 years have hardly experienced any -- one of the joys of being up North. Havalet Bay, Guernsey, in August, is just about the only crowded anchorage I can even remember in the last 10 years.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 05:36
|
#111
|
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Ranieri/Bari, S. Italy
Boat: Jeanneau 43ds
Posts: 638
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Yes, the problem is when you are happily anchored but a new arrival is asking where your anchor is located. But you have only a faint idea where it might be. The solution, albeit a bit controversial, is to use an anchor buoy which will always sit more or less directly above your anchor. I use one if i think there might be some later arrivals in what then becomes a busy anchorage.
A small power boat tied up on my anchor buoy one day (but was happy to move) so now i put a warning on it as well as having marked it with reflective and luminescent tape.
As for anchoring practice i usually try for 5:1 (my sailing boat is 12 tonnes with 80 metres (250ft) of 10mm (3/8") of chain with a Spade S100 (20kg/45lb). And i will always power set the anchor after letting it settle for 5-10 minutes. To power set i slowly increase the engine rpm up to 2,000rpm and hold it there for 30secs-1 minute while watching a transit ashore. (3-bladed feathering prop similar in design to a Maxprop). I used to have a 20kg (45lb) Bruce copy on the boat but found it was having trouble with even small amounts of weed so changed to the Spade of the same weight.
Andrew
__________________
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 05:55
|
#112
|
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Caribbean/Lutsen, mn
Boat: Beneteau 42cc
Posts: 53
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
It does come down to when and where. Here in islands where the trade winds are very consistent, limited tide, and sand to hold, we don’t put much down. All chain, under 4:1, and never drag. Many anchorages have moorings in them, and more scope can create problems. Sailing Lake Superior where you are alone 90% of the time and the wind is likely to change? 25’ of chain plus 7:1 nylon rode. Lots of variables.
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 06:05
|
#113
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMetals
. . . The solution, albeit a bit controversial, is to use an anchor buoy which will always sit more or less directly above your anchor. I use one if i think there might be some later arrivals in what then becomes a busy anchorage.. .
|
Please don't do that. This creates a hazard for both you and for others without accomplishing anything useful.
It hardly matters where your anchor is. Others simply avoid the area ahead of you up to 10x the water depth or so. If once in a blue moon someone lays an anchor chain over yours, this is a trivial job to deal with, in case you need to leave first.
The float, on the other hand, will get into other boats' propellers, possibly immobilizing them and creating a crash or grounding risk, and/or tripping out your anchor. Those who see your float (and thus avoid crash, grounding, and anchor-tripping hazards) will have to stay far away from it to avoid swinging over it and getting tangled up in it THAT way. This is really piggish behavior in a crowded anchorage.
There is nothing "controversial" about it. This practice of intentionally creating a hazard in a crowded anchorage is universally condemned by cruisers with any modicum of courtesy and seamanship. It is the equivalent of laying out crab pots in a crowded anchorage, or a channel.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 06:14
|
#114
|
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Ranieri/Bari, S. Italy
Boat: Jeanneau 43ds
Posts: 638
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Dockhead, I realised my comment could start an energetic side debate (wait until Chotu makes his contribution!) which is why i fully realise and stated that i know it is controversial. I am not so sure that it is a valid statement to say the use of an anchor buoy is "Universally Condemned". There are certainly others who use them.
As for getting the line from the anchor buoy caught in a prop, yes this is possible if it is a DIY line but with the spring-loaded lines which wind up on a reel inside the buoy the line down to the anchor is always going to be tight. Latter (while expensive) is what i use from time to time.
Andrew
__________________
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 06:47
|
#115
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMetals
Dockhead, I realised my comment could start an energetic side debate (wait until Chotu makes his contribution!) which is why i fully realise and stated that i know it is controversial. I am not so sure that it is a valid statement to say the use of an anchor buoy is "Universally Condemned". There are certainly others who use them.
|
You are correct, and my "universally condemned" is an exaggeration. Yes, there are, unfortunately, a few who continue to use these things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMetals
As for getting the line from the anchor buoy caught in a prop, yes this is possible if it is a DIY line but with the spring-loaded lines which wind up on a reel inside the buoy the line down to the anchor is always going to be tight. Latter (while expensive) is what i use from time to time.
Andrew
|
That will not prevent the float from getting into a prop if it is run over. The line will pay out as the boat pulls it out of position. I've seen it happen, and the result was carnage -- the one boat immobilized, crashed into another boat, with significant damage. The culprit who laid out the float got his anchor tripped out; he wasn't on board and his boat went onto the beach despite efforts of others to save it (he also didn't leave his keys in the ignition). If you had seen this scene, I bet you would stop using that infernal contraption. And your anchorage neighbors will thank you.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 07:02
|
#116
|
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Ranieri/Bari, S. Italy
Boat: Jeanneau 43ds
Posts: 638
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Yes, that is a bit of a horror story. I wonder if the "anchor buoy" was just a small float instead of being a good sized buoy and without constant line tension down to the anchor . As i explained, the one that i have is a full sized buoy, about the size of a fender but shorter and wider, a bit similar but slightly smaller than a mooring buoy, so it has room inside for the large spring-loaded reel which keeps the tape tight. If another boat rides over my anchor buoy the buoy will simply go underneath or works it way around but i usually stop with my tender to chat with the boat ahead, even if i am not using my anchor buoy, just in case it turns out that i might have planned to leave before they do.
I wonder if there is a legal precedence as to who was responsible in the event that you mentioned bec of course it would have been the boat that caught the anchor "float" in its prop that would have been the later arrival.
Andrew
__________________
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 07:17
|
#117
|
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMetals
. . . I wonder if there is a legal precedence as to who was responsible in the event that you mentioned bec of course it would have been the boat that caught the anchor "float" in its prop that would have been the later arrival. Andrew
|
I've wondered the same thing. I don't know. I've not seen any applicable case law. Speaking as a lawyer, I think a boat which came to grief by getting tangled in an anchor float would have a pretty good case against the boat which used it. It is true, as others have said, that the first to arrive has the legal right to a clear berth, but good seamanship and the ordinary practice of seamen is highly relevant to what is a clear berth, and how you use it, so if you wanted to press a claim like that, you would get testimony from experts that deploying such floats creates hazards and is unseamanlike. It would not be hard to find such expert witnesses.
I presume you have a light on your float, right? Surely you would not leave something like that unlit, in a traffic area.
__________________
"You sea! I resign myself to you also . . . . I guess what you mean,
I behold from the beach your crooked inviting fingers,
I believe you refuse to go back without feeling of me;
We must have a turn together . . . . I undress . . . . hurry me out of sight of the land,
Cushion me soft . . . . rock me in billowy drowse,
Dash me with amorous wet . . . . I can repay you."
Walt Whitman
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 07:28
|
#118
|
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Good question
Boat: Rafiki 37
Posts: 14,151
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
I'm with DH on anchor buoys. There's little value to them, while they create a real hazard for everyone in the anchorage. But the worst offense (to me) is that they carve out waaay more space for the buoyed boat that is necessary. In a crowded anchorage this seems as impolite and wrong as the person who insists on deploying 10:1 rode (regardless of whether they were first one in or not).
I've never encountered a boater who had no idea where their anchor was. Sometimes the answers are vague, but boaters I've asked usually have some answer. But with any wind or current, and by observing chain rode vs rope, it's generally pretty easy to assess where anchors and rodes are laid out.
Swinging over someone else's anchor is not a problem. Yes, sometimes rodes get overlapped, but again, I've never seen it become a big issue.
The only use I have for an anchor buoy is when I deploy a trip line. This is in exceedingly rare situations when I am seriously concerned about anchor fouling.
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 07:38
|
#119
|
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: British Columbia
Boat: Sceptre 41
Posts: 1,929
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
I too don't like anchor buoys, for the reasons already given, plus: once I came very very close to fouling my own propeller as I tried to get out of a tight space with winds blowing. Don't like them, rarely (!) use one.
BUT: there are too many bays here in British Columbia that have logging debris on the bottom . A buoyed trip line is sometines essential.
|
|
|
10-01-2021, 07:49
|
#120
|
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,569
|
Re: Anchoring with 4:1 Scope?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
I've wondered the same thing. I don't know. I've not seen any applicable case law. Speaking as a lawyer, I think a boat which came to grief by getting tangled in an anchor float would have a pretty good case against the boat which used it. It is true, as others have said, that the first to arrive has the legal right to a clear berth, but good seamanship and the ordinary practice of seamen is highly relevant to what is a clear berth, and how you use it, so if you wanted to press a claim like that, you would get testimony from experts that deploying such floats creates hazards and is unseamanlike. It would not be hard to find such expert witnesses.
I presume you have a light on your float, right? Surely you would not leave something like that unlit, in a traffic area.
|
I agree 100% that floats are poor practice. Done.
But I don't think the analysis will work. For example, if a crabber places a trap in a legal area (not channel, not legally designated anchorage) and you foul it and cause yourself damage, that's on you. You might not like where he placed the pot, but unless it was illegal, you needed to keep clear. If you can't see it at night, don't navigate at night. If a car is parked in a foolish but legal location, you better not hit it.
I think he has no case at all. He should have avoided the float.
I'm not sayin' whether that seems fair. But whether using a float is poor practice can depend on what book you read. If owned the float, I'd pull out a text book to defend that what I did was not imprudent and not altogether unexpected. I would say that the man who snagged my boat had every reason to believe that there could be a float within 10x water depth in front of me, and he disregarded that.
And to repeat, I dislike floats. I've never used one, other than anchor testing, when I needed to know where to dive. But never just anchoring. And I have snagged several times; it was not enough to change my mind.
|
|
|
|
|
Thread Tools |
Search this Thread |
|
|
Display Modes |
Rate This Thread |
Linear Mode
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
Advertise Here
Recent Discussions |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Vendor Spotlight |
|
|
|
|