Dinghy. Davits or foredeck on ocean crossing

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Agree that with a good winch, the hoisting part is not difficult. I've done this plenty of times on previous boats.

But unless you run the lifting line to the end of the boom and swing it up and out or a spinnaker pole or something it takes another person to hold the dink away from the topsides to life it over the lifelines. And with any swell or chop the dink tends to swing and bash around in the process.

So how do you deal with those aspects of hoisting?

We do not use a boom or other spar, just hold the dingy away. We usually use two persons, one to winch and one to guide the dingy. For just hanging it up alongside (at night) I often do it without the help of another person.

To get it on the foredeck we just hoist it alongside until it almost, but not quite, clears the top of the lifelines. Then I push it forward (from the transom or the back of one of the tubes) and it lifts up as it swings forward and clears the lifelines and swings over the deck. I let it come back against the shrouds, and then I can drop it on deck. One factor which helps is to have the bow painter tied to the yacht's bow pulpit which keeps the dingy facing for and aft.
This might sound complicated but it is actually simple and quick.

1. Stop along side aft and let off any passengers.
2. Slide the dingy forward and tie the bow painter to the yacht's pulpit.
3. Attach the lifting halyard to the lifting bridle which is kept in the dingy, attached properly with a ring to hook the halyard on.
4. Scramble onto the yacht's deck and begin guiding as another person winches, but this can be done without a guide.
5. At the right height stop winching and then manhandle the dingy over the lifeline as described above.

Thus whole process, from arrival alongside, to landing the dingy on deck, takes us about three minutes. However, if you wish to remove the motor, do that while the dingy is in position alongside, before lifting the dingy and that does increase the time required. We use the same halyard since we lift the motor forward and drop it through the bow hatch. This is generally a two person job. We also put the fuel tank and oars on deck at this time.

Lifting at the midships when there are waves present is easier in my opinion since the middle of the yacht does not rise and fall as much as the ends. I've seen people really struggle to get motors off and a dingy raised when the aft end of the ship is rising and falling a couple of feet. When lifting amidships the thing to watch out for is the rolling of the vessel. Especially when lifting the motor off. A roll can lift the motor before you are ready then dunk it when the boat rolls back. Keep the halyard slack until you are ready, then yank it up swiftly. Same if trying to put the motor onto the dingy if there are waves present.

[Joli]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Agree that with a good winch, the hoisting part is not difficult. I've done this plenty of times on previous boats.

But unless you run the lifting line to the end of the boom and swing it up and out or a spinnaker pole or something it takes another person to hold the dink away from the topsides to life it over the lifelines. And with any swell or chop the dink tends to swing and bash around in the process.

So how do you deal with those aspects of hoisting?

Our dinghy, engine fuel, battery, etc is about 450#'s. The key is to tie it forward so when you lift it, it doesn't swing aft. In a rolly anchorage you have to time it, get it up and down quickly, you need an electric winch. We don't use a spin pole to hold it away from the topside, I push it away. We've lifted it in some hairy conditions and it hasn't gotten away or knocked me off the boat...yet. I have considered adding a line so the dinghy can't swing across the boat and knock me off but generally the jib shreets or spin pole will catch me before the dinghy launches me off the other side of the boat.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

We do not use a boom or other spar, just hold the dingy away. We usually use two persons, one to winch and one to guide the dingy. For just hanging it up alongside (at night) I often do it without the help of another person.

To get it on the foredeck we just hoist it alongside until it almost, but not quite, clears the top of the lifelines. Then I push it forward (from the transom or the back of one of the tubes) and it lifts up as it swings forward and clears the lifelines and swings over the deck. I let it come back against the shrouds, and then I can drop it on deck. One factor which helps is to have the bow painter tied to the yacht's bow pulpit which keeps the dingy facing for and aft.
This might sound complicated but it is actually simple and quick.

1. Stop along side aft and let off any passengers.
2. Slide the dingy forward and tie the bow painter to the yacht's pulpit.
3. Attach the lifting halyard to the lifting bridle which is kept in the dingy, attached properly with a ring to hook the halyard on.
4. Scramble onto the yacht's deck and begin guiding as another person winches, but this can be done without a guide.
5. At the right height stop winching and then manhandle the dingy over the lifeline as described above.

Thus whole process, from arrival alongside, to landing the dingy on deck, takes us about three minutes. However, if you wish to remove the motor, do that while the dingy is in position alongside, before lifting the dingy and that does increase the time required. We use the same halyard since we lift the motor forward and drop it through the bow hatch. This is generally a two person job. We also put the fuel tank and oars on deck at this time.

Lifting at the midships when there are waves present is easier in my opinion since the middle of the yacht does not rise and fall as much as the ends. I've seen people really struggle to get motors off and a dingy raised when the aft end of the ship is rising and falling a couple of feet. When lifting amidships the thing to watch out for is the rolling of the vessel. Especially when lifting the motor off. A roll can lift the motor before you are ready then dunk it when the boat rolls back. Keep the halyard slack until you are ready, then yank it up swiftly. Same if trying to put the motor onto the dingy if there are waves present.

This is almost exactly how we do it, and Fred has written a great description.



But getting the dink onto the foredeck with this procedure is surprisingly simple and quick.


If you can get the motor off before hand, an even simpler method is to simply crank the dinghy up vertically with the halyard, lifting from the tow eye under the bow. This is a bit easier when single handed, on my boat.


We do have davits, so for overnight or short passages, we just crank the dink up with them, without taking the motor off. My davits are a bit short (I downsized them) so lifting the dink is a bit fiddly single handed, as the dink has to be stabilized with a boat hook as it comes up, and pushed off to clear the reverse counter at the beginning of the lift.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Thus whole process, from arrival alongside, to landing the dingy on deck, takes us about three minutes. However, if you wish to remove the motor, do that while the dingy is in position alongside, before lifting the dingy and that does increase the time required. We use the same halyard since we lift the motor forward and drop it through the bow hatch. This is generally a two person job. We also put the fuel tank and oars on deck at this time.

So you put the dinghy on the foredeck with engine attached? This I assume means two things. First the dinghy is stored right side up and second, you must have a cradle for the dinghy to sit it.

If stored right side up, in my experience there's a much higher risk of filling the dinghy with a wave than there would be hanging in davits of a reasonable height over the water.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by skipmac

So you put the dinghy on the foredeck with engine attached? This I assume means two things. First the dinghy is stored right side up and second, you must have a cradle for the dinghy to sit it.

If stored right side up, in my experience there's a much higher risk of filling the dinghy with a wave than there would be hanging in davits of a reasonable height over the water.

Right on both counts. So that is why we do not store it on deck with the motor on for passages of any length. Today, for example, we have a 22nm trip and the motor is off and the dingy upside down. If we were going offshore we'd deflate the dingy but today's trip is short and the weather forecast is calm all day.

However, for a short trip around the bay we can keep the whole shebang on deck with the motor on. I have removed the motor while the dingy on on deck in order to flip over the dingy but it is not much fun.

The big concern I have about using davits on the rear is the weight and windage in a poor location and if it is lower to reduce the weight aloft when hung in the davits then in a knock-down situation the dingy could strike the water, with bad consequences.

[goboatingnow]

There’s no way I can “ scramble “ upto onto my yachts deck from the dinghy amidships , I can only exit at the stern , I can then bring my spinnaker halyard back and haul the dinghy onto the foredeck , this means the engine has to come off at the stern quarter . Very difficult/impossible in any seaway.

I have crossed the Atlantic with a dinghy upside down on the foredeck , so to me it’s the best option but I do find the sheets can get entangled from time to time in it.

[donradcliffe]

We used the Wings method. We had two motors, 3.5 and 18 hp. Both motors went down the foredeck hatch and clamped onto a shelf I built. The dinghy went upside down over the life raft on the foredeck. We used a spinnaker halyard with a cabintop winch by the mast to do the lifting.

It was a one man job to launch and retrieve the dinghy and the small motor. The 3.5 two stroke weighed 28 pounds and could be carried with one hand. The aluminum 3.10 rib weighed less than 100 lbs.

1. Hook spinnaker halyard to dinghy sling and lift dinghy up a few feet, then flip it right side up.

2. Hoist over lifelines, then take the halyard tail forward and drop the dinghy with one hand while pushing it away from the boat with the other hand and/or my foot.

3. Take the dinghy to the stern and tie off

4. Pull the motor out of the hatch, carry it to the stern, down the swim ladder and into the dinghy.

Retrieval was the reverse. It took about 10 minutes from start to finish.

The big motor required two people. Once the dinghy was in the water it was tied to the bow. The halyard was attached to the motor and lifted out of the hatch and down to the dinghy, with one person cranking and one person guiding. The motor was lowered to below deck level, then the guiding person grabbed the tight halyard and stepped over the lifelines and down into the dinghy. It was then lowered to the dinghy transom and secured. The halyard was released and the dinghy with motor went to the stern to load the fuel tank and other gear.

If the seas and wind were up, we hoisted the dinghy and motor onto the foredeck and set it down right side up. It was easier to remove the motor with the slower motion of the big boat.

Now you may understand why we used the little motor 98% of the time. Its other advantages were that it was much less likely to be stolen, and it was much easer to drag 125 pounds of dinghy and motor up the beach than 225 pounds with the big motor. We did have beach wheels for the big motor, but that added a lot of complications and time. We felt the big motor was needed in strong winds/currents for safety, and for the times when we needed to travel more than 1/3 mile.

This system worked well for us, but might not work for everyone. We did not have a huge amount of freeboard near the mast and I was under 70 years old.

[Carolyn Phillip]

Super practical! Exactly what both of us have done on our own sailboats. when my partner and I used to singlehand. I also used to enjoy the warm rainwater bath in inflatable on foredeck, then using it to soak laundry in. The ocean motion did the agitating part...

[Carolyn Phillip]

Upside down over forehatch on adjustable jib halyard makes super windscoop over sultry bunk, and easy launch.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It really depends on the boat and the davit setup. If the dinghy can be braced well enough and is in a position that it won't get dunked by waves while fully heeled, I see no reason it can't stay in the davits. The decision will also depend on how easily you can get it onto the foredeck, secure it there, and whether having it there blocks any hatches for egress or has other downsides.

Agree, very dependent on boat, davit set up...and intended crossing. Ive done typically trade winds crossings on various boats w dinghy in davits. Ive also seen dinghy/davit damage on unexpectedly rough near coastal runs. Like everything else the answer is "it depends".

[Jim Cate]

There’s no way I can “ scramble “ upto onto my yachts deck from the dinghy amidships

That's kinda surprising to me! I routinely get on deck from the dink at the shrouds using a single home made step hung from the toe rail. Your Bavaria may have a few inches more freeboard than my somewhat longer boat, but adding a second step to the "ladder" would be simple enough and could easily accommodate the added height.

Of course, you may be older than I... but I doubt it.

Jim

[Joli]

Originally Posted by skipmac

So you put the dinghy on the foredeck with engine attached? This I assume means two things. First the dinghy is stored right side up and second, you must have a cradle for the dinghy to sit it.

If stored right side up, in my experience there's a much higher risk of filling the dinghy with a wave than there would be hanging in davits of a reasonable height over the water.

We've never had a single wave fill the dinghy, spray yes, one wave no. We strap it down on it's cradle with six ratchet straps and cover it. Don't forget to pull the drain plug because over a multi day passage it will get water in it. Our roughest conditions with the dinghy on deck was a five day stretch under triple reef and staysail, upwind in largish waves.

[Bluechart]

It sounds like your dinghy has a hard bottom..when doing crossings, I deflate, fold, and stow, my soft bottom to minimize windage. You might want to stow upside down, deflated, to minimize windage.

When traveling with my dinghy hanging from davits - I use laterals with 2:1 purchase, one from the dinghy bow, one from the stern, and a 3” wide ratchet strap to secure the dinghy to the stern. This does prevent all movement. Cushions between the stern pulpit and dinghy prevent chafe.

[RJC]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Forgot to add on this thread (see second thread on staysail booms https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...in-244513.html).

One problem with the foredeck. Boat is a cutter staysail rig with a club boom that is a deck sweeper so will have to change the setup for the dinghy to fit. This is why I'm considering the davits instead of the foredeck which was always my go to in the past.

We have a Shannon 38 ketch with a staysail on a boom. We store our 9 foot Dyer Dhow hard dinghy on deck between our dodger and our mainmast. For us, the possibility of encountering significant waves offshore with no practical way to transfer the dinghy to a more secure location would cause us too much anxiety. You might also check out sailing author Annie Dike's account of having their dinghy and davits torn off by a wave in the Gulf of Mexico.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Bluechart

It sounds like your dinghy has a hard bottom..when doing crossings, I deflate, fold, and stow, my soft bottom to minimize windage. You might want to stow upside down, deflated, to minimize windage.

When traveling with my dinghy hanging from davits - I use laterals with 2:1 purchase, one from the dinghy bow, one from the stern, and a 3” wide ratchet strap to secure the dinghy to the stern. This does prevent all movement. Cushions between the stern pulpit and dinghy prevent chafe.

Even if you secure the dingy to absolutely prevent any movement the momentum of 250# weight plus the weight of the arch and davits themselves and the solar panels up there are still trying to move the back of the boat. It is momentum both in pitch and roll which is happening. This affects the boat's natural motion in the waves and places stress on the davit attachments. And then there is windage.

And today (I wish I'd photographed it) a boat left the anchorage with a dingy on the davits just above deck level, which introduces another risk. The ends of that dingy extended beyond the width of the vessel by a couple of feet. If they take a knock down or a strong gust heels them well over it is likely that the projecting end of the dingy will drag in the water, which will present a huge force on the dingy and whole structure. Obviously the choice then it to raise it up, which obscures the view aft, or way up allowing you to see under it, but exacerbating the weight and momentum aloft.

I am convinced the dingy suspended on davits aft is not the best for heavy weather seamanship or even simply comfort in a seaway and not good for performance, sailing or motoring. It is simply thought of as a more convenient way of storing the dingy and the downsides are rationalized or diminished in importance.

But I recognize that every skipper has his own opinion and there is no one right way.