Dinghy. Davits or foredeck on ocean crossing

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

You should perhaps consider the effect of the considerable weight of the dink hoisted high above the WL plus the considerable windage added. Neither will be favorable changes in terms of stability or performance.

Valid point. However with my davits the dinghy at full hoist is just over deck level while in front of the mast sitting on the cabin top so the height above water line would be about the same.

It will certainly add to windage on davits compared to on deck but I want the davits to mount solar as well so willing to make the sacrifice for the benefits.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Another reason that I don't like boomed foresails!

Jim

Well I think I've said before, I have a love/hate or perhaps more accurately like/hate relationship with the club boom. It has its benefits and uses which I mostly like but not without some serious negatives that I really hate.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Valid point. However with my davits the dinghy at full hoist is just over deck level while in front of the mast sitting on the cabin top so the height above water line would be about the same.

It will certainly add to windage on davits compared to on deck but I want the davits to mount solar as well so willing to make the sacrifice for the benefits.




Well I think I've said before, I have a love/hate or perhaps more accurately like/hate relationship with the club boom. It has its benefits and uses which I mostly like but not without some serious negatives that I really hate.

Skip, I misunderstood this line from the OP:

"Also davits are high enough that I have about zero concerns of taking a wave into the dinghy."

to mean that it was quite high. If only at deck level I'd be concerned about shipping a wave top. We've had such waves at times.

At any rate, you have had inputs from several divergent views now. Good luck with the decision.

Jim

[argosail]

So newbie comment over here, but why not just have an inflatable dinghy and then deflate it when going on a long-distance leg. And you can get one of those instant inflatable ones that have a canister on it. Ok, it's more like a life raft at this point which brings me to second point.

Second point, why not a porta-bote? I saw these at the Annapolis show and they seem quite hardy and can put an outboard on them.

(These are my ideas since I am trying to go for as small a coastal cruiser as possible with 5'10" headroom, but with long stays at mooring buoys, have to think my dinghy situation too and foredeck space in a 26-28 foot boat will be difficult.)

[callistov42]

Davit lines chafe and fail at the worst possible moment.
Rigging your stay sail without the club footed boom is easy.
I used to carry my dinghy on my davits. Lost one. No more.
Fore deck, nice and secure on ALL LONG PASSAGES.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by argosail

So newbie comment over here, but why not just have an inflatable dinghy and then deflate it when going on a long-distance leg. And you can get one of those instant inflatable ones that have a canister on it. Ok, it's more like a life raft at this point which brings me to second point.

Second point, why not a porta-bote? I saw these at the Annapolis show and they seem quite hardy and can put an outboard on them.

(These are my ideas since I am trying to go for as small a coastal cruiser as possible with 5'10" headroom, but with long stays at mooring buoys, have to think my dinghy situation too and foredeck space in a 26-28 foot boat will be difficult.)

If a dinghy that can be deflated or collapsed meets your needs, they're certainly a viable option.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Skip, I misunderstood this line from the OP:

"Also davits are high enough that I have about zero concerns of taking a wave into the dinghy."

to mean that it was quite high. If only at deck level I'd be concerned about shipping a wave top. We've had such waves at times.

At any rate, you have had inputs from several divergent views now. Good luck with the decision.

Jim

Thanks Jim. Perhaps a little clarification or maybe a correction.

First, my boat does have a fairly high freeboard so deck level is already pretty high so the keel of the RIB pretty high.

Regarding my zero concern for taking water in the dink, perhaps better to say almost zero concern. I have a couple of times seen waves bring green water over the stern but think the odds of encountering weather that severe in the times and routes I'm planning would be approaching zero. Of course sometimes stuff happens and if you look at history, I believe there have been North Atlantic hurricanes recorded every month of the year.

[fxykty]

If no room on the foredeck due to staysail clubfoot (that’s a totally separate conversation) then how about on your cabin top? Carrying a dinghy on davits for ocean passages for a monohull under 50’ is not really great.

We have a catamaran with relatively high davits and have opted for a fully deflatable dinghy that we store below on passages. The likelihood of getting pooped in survivable conditions is pretty low, but why take chances? Removing the dinghy from the davits also improves visibility aft.

Even a rigid hull dinghy with tubes deflated will fit into much smaller space than that required when fully inflated.

[Tortuga's Lie]

Reading this thread made me think of my white water canoeing days where we would use inflatable float bags to take up space in the canoe for when you shipped water, I guess you could use the same idea in a dinghy hoisted in davits so it wouldn't poop if a wave broke into it. This wouldn't negate the tremendous force of the wave hitting the dinghy, just help keep the majority of water out.
The best bet would still be the foredeck if possible.

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Foredeck is great. Done it many times. Flip upside down, cushions under bow and stern. Plenty of tie downs available. Depending on where it sets you may still open the forward hatch under it.

+1

Every ocean crossing I've ever done, Skip, we either deflated it completely and stowed it below (when there was inflatable liferaft on deck) or flipped and tied down on foredeck with ratcheting straps in such a way that crew can hopefully walk around it and not trip and go overboard...

Getting excited to go?

Fair winds!
LittleWing77

[Dockhead]

There's no one answer to this. What kind of boat? What kind of dinghy? What kind of davits? Which ocean crossing?



When I bought my boat, she came with an Avon 340 with central console and 25hp wheel steered outboard, which could only be carried in davits. This was heavy and however I strapped it down, it moved in the davits and chafed and caused problems.


I swapped it for an Avon 310 Lite folding RIB, thinking that just for ocean passages I would stow on foredeck, otherwise in davits. It's so easy to stow on the foredeck that this is where it mostly lives.


I just crossed an ocean on a Discovery 67 with the dinghy in davits. It was fine, and nice not to have the dink obstructing the deck.


So it all depends. In a trade winds crossing you might not see much big weather, if any. A West to East Atlantic crossing by the Northern route is a whole different ball game. It was crossing the North Sea with dinghy in davits which put me off it, but further South it might not be a big deal.


So it all depends. The lighter the dinghy the more options you have. This is the strong point of the light folding RIB I have now -- it's very good in davits because light and easy to secure and doesn't swing around, and very good on the foredeck because it folds up easily. A heavy RIB is much more seaworthy but much harder to deal with at sea. It's all a whole lot of tradeoffs.

[rslifkin]

On the pooping with a dinghy in davits topic, I wonder how hard it would be to rig davits to lift the dinghy, but then do like some of the swim platform davits and flip it on its side. If you're taking the outboard off first anyway, being able to flip the dinghy vertically (or maybe upside-down) would avoid most of the pooping concerns. Of course, visibility behind you would go to crap unless you can see over the dinghy...

[Networker]

I keep it in the davits, which are strong and high, but with taller waves in heavy weather, it can touch and is worrying to see. What I might do for a long passage is deflate it and keep on foredeck, as it’s just not something you want to worry about.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Valid point. However with my davits the dinghy at full hoist is just over deck level while in front of the mast sitting on the cabin top so the height above water line would be about the same.

It will certainly add to windage on davits compared to on deck but I want the davits to mount solar as well so willing to make the sacrifice for the benefits.




Well I think I've said before, I have a love/hate or perhaps more accurately like/hate relationship with the club boom. It has its benefits and uses which I mostly like but not without some serious negatives that I really hate.

I'm definitely with Jim on this one. Even if you secure the dingy to completely eliminate movement that amount of weight is still out there trying to swing. It will apply quite a lot of force and momentum to the davits and the stern of the boat and the weight of the davits themselves is already substantial. Then think of the weight of the solar panels which will certainly find their way to the top of that structure. Without mentioning the windage, that weight and swinging force is in a bad place for sailing performance. Least of all it adds greatly to pitching of the yacht. And the windage is also substantial. So this Davit, solar, dingy combination is surely not good for sailing performance. It even affect motoring performance (a badly pitching boat will have a harder time motoring into a big chop or waves.) We've seen boats with the arches breaking away (shattered fiberglass) due to the momentum.

Maybe you don't care about performance (you're cruising, not racing, right?) but this extra weight in the ends does not make the boat more seaworthy. Exactly the opposite. Not only does it add to the pitching, reduce stability, and add windage, think of its effect in a knockdown or round up. You have this big weight way up there just trying to make things worse.

Even if most of your sailing is done in moderate conditions you can always encounter heavy weather. Be prepared. We always prepare our boat to be safe and easy to handle in heavy weather and that means no davits or hanging dingy up there in the stern. For short passages in protected water we secure the dingy upside down on the foredeck. But for longer passages or exposed waters we deflate the dingy and stow it below (motor too, on its own bracket). Our decks are CLEAR and heavy weather is not a problem for us, and believe me, we've seen plenty of it.

Those cruisers who say they need the solar arch, Davits, or other structures for "convenience" are putting "convenience" ahead of performance and, in my view, safety.

BTW, hoisting the dingy, even with a motor on it, is easy with a spin halyard and a big cockpit winch if you have a good lead for it. On our boat my wife, Judy, can pop the 12' dingy with 15hp motor and full tank of gas up to deck level in about 60 seconds.

[Joli]

We're probably going to add davits to lift the dinghy for overnight protection and traveling short distances. All other times it lives on the foredeck. Since we lift the dinghy every night it can sometimes be difficult when it's blowing or rolly, hence davits.

Offshore I would be uncomfortable having a dinghy on davits. I know many who do this but also know some who've lost their dinghy from large waves.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Here's our dinghy on deck, we're 61'. We lift it with a wing halyard brought back to the utility winch, which is powered.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by wingssail

BTW, hoisting the dingy, even with a motor on it, is easy with a spin halyard and a big cockpit winch if you have a good lead for it. On our boat my wife, Judy, can pop the 12' dingy with 15hp motor and full tank of gas up to deck level in about 60 seconds.

Agree that with a good winch, the hoisting part is not difficult. I've done this plenty of times on previous boats.

But unless you run the lifting line to the end of the boom and swing it up and out or a spinnaker pole or something it takes another person to hold the dink away from the topsides to life it over the lifelines. And with any swell or chop the dink tends to swing and bash around in the process.

So how do you deal with those aspects of hoisting?