Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-02-2024, 18:26   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2023
Posts: 2
Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Surprised I couldn't find any conversations re this via google.

I'm suspecting the star shape is an intentional after sales marketing ploy, "hoping" to force consumers without the brain matter to consider a work around to purchase a "specialised ratchet" after they lose one over the side, vs simply using anything easily attainable that's "SQUARE".

Replacement handles appear to start from ~$100 to ~$500 (WTF?), vs simply grabbing a socket wrench from the tool box in an emergency, bending some rod & grind a square, using a battery power tool, etc, etc.

Could there be any other reason for the star shape?

Similar could be said about many other industries, incl automotive, something as simple as the windscreen washer container, different shape/size for each model release these days, $50+ to replace.
Vs in the 70s we could use anything that held water, or buy a generic off the shelf from an auto shop for a few bucks.

End Rant. Cheers!
WestAus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2024, 18:42   #2
Moderator
 
Jammer's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Minnesota
Boat: Tartan 3800
Posts: 4,842
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Erm. Well. They're 11/16". You can drive them with an 11/16" square drive if that's what you have or want to make, and it will work out fine. I have 1/2" and 3/4" breaker bars, neither one quite fits; my boat came with winch handles. :/
__________________
The best part of an adventure is the people you meet.
Jammer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2024, 19:13   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2023
Posts: 1,481
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestAus View Post
Surprised I couldn't find any conversations re this via google.

I'm suspecting the star shape is an intentional after sales marketing ploy, "hoping" to force consumers without the brain matter to consider a work around to purchase a "specialised ratchet" after they lose one over the side, vs simply using anything easily attainable that's "SQUARE".

Replacement handles appear to start from ~$100 to ~$500 (WTF?), vs simply grabbing a socket wrench from the tool box in an emergency, bending some rod & grind a square, using a battery power tool, etc, etc.

Could there be any other reason for the star shape?

Similar could be said about many other industries, incl automotive, something as simple as the windscreen washer container, different shape/size for each model release these days, $50+ to replace.
Vs in the 70s we could use anything that held water, or buy a generic off the shelf from an auto shop for a few bucks.

End Rant. Cheers!
For a grand conspiracy, that’s not quite the craziest one around, but there are good engineering reasons for the “star” shape. The handle fits in much easier and quicker without even having to think about aligning it. As has been pointed out since it is an 8-pointed star, you CAN drive it with a square fitting. But nobody does. If you want to, feel free. Let us know how much money you save.
SailingHarmonie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2024, 19:25   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Boat: Island Packet 40
Posts: 6,448
Images: 7
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Probably came about for strength when a lot of this stuff was made from cast bronze.
__________________
Satiriker ist verboten, la conformité est obligatoire
RaymondR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2024, 20:51   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: EC
Boat: Cruising Catamaran
Posts: 1,080
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Probably an engineering answer around number of contact points, slippage etc - likely same sorts of reasons there are splines on a prop shaft.
Tin Tin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2024, 21:28   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Langley, WA
Boat: Nordic 44
Posts: 2,506
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Probably a much simpler answer than that. A company developed a removable winch handle to replace the older flat plate insert design, probably Barient and everyone else jumped on the band wagon.
stormalong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-02-2024, 22:16   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: PNW
Boat: 35 Ft. cutter, custom
Posts: 2,306
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Back in the old days Merriman made top-action winches with a square stud sticking out the top.
The handles were like a 1920s ratchet that had a square hole in it.
__________________
Beginning to Prepare to Commence
Bowdrie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 02:01   #8
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,312
Images: 241
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

An 8-point star [double square*] socket benefits from having more positions [than a square], for engaging the handle, in the winch.

* (2) x 11/16 inch/±17mm squares, superimposed at 45°.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 05:01   #9
Registered User
 
Mickeyrouse's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Texas
Boat: Hinckley Bermuda 40
Posts: 848
Images: 5
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WestAus View Post
Surprised I couldn't find any conversations re this via google.

I'm suspecting the star shape is an intentional after sales marketing ploy, "hoping" to force consumers without the brain matter to consider a work around to purchase a "specialised ratchet" after they lose one over the side, vs simply using anything easily attainable that's "SQUARE".

Replacement handles appear to start from ~$100 to ~$500 (WTF?), vs simply grabbing a socket wrench from the tool box in an emergency, bending some rod & grind a square, using a battery power tool, etc, etc.

Cheers!
Our winches- Barient- indeed have the afore-mentioned eight point star socket. But the insert stud of our winch handles is square, which is the shape assumed after pulling the little lever at the end that permits insertion. Upon release of the lever, the little square becomes the star, now locked in. The OP’s quick fix will work, but since it won’t likely have the spring-loaded retaing square, it is at risk of going overboard-again. In my many years of sailing I’ve only lost three winch handles overboard. I’m glad there is apparently an industry standard on stud sizes, because over the years I’ve had Barlow, Arco, Barient, Titan- and they are interchangeable. On the rare occasions I’ve needed a spare, re-sale shops and ebay have them around $30.
__________________
Why won’t the money go as far as the boat will?
Mickeyrouse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 05:14   #10
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,601
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Replacement winch handles start at about $25. Yes, $100 buys a better handle. Such is the case with any wrench.


I've dropped 1 in 40 years, and I'm pretty careless with handles.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 06:04   #11
JBP
Registered User
 
JBP's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Lake Erie, PA
Boat: Jeanneau Tonic 23
Posts: 524
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

"How many winches do you have on your boat? The answer is none. They’re all capstans. By definition, a winch stores its cable on the drum, and it’s mounted horizontally."

No answer here, but it is interesting.

https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/arch...f-winches-6545

Apparently the star socket was introduced by Henry Shepherd while working for Lewmar. Before that the handle was an attached lever which you still see occasionally.
JBP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 08:15   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 49,312
Images: 241
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBP View Post
"How many winches do you have on your boat? The answer is none. They’re all capstans. By definition, a winch stores its cable on the drum[1], and it’s mounted horizontally.[2]"...
Technically, I suppose you are correct. What, we sailors, typically call a [halyard, or sheet] winch, could, more properly be called a capstan.
1. The main difference, between a winch and a capstan, is that the winch has a drum, onto which a rope, chain, or cable, is wound [& stored]; while a capstan is a drum-shaped device, used to assist in pulling a rope, steel cable or chain, but which does not actually roll [& store it] it onto the drum. The capstan’s rope [etc] is tailed, off the drum.

2. Except, when it’s not horizontal.
Horizontal vs vertical windlass https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ss-184611.html
Horizontal or Vertical ? ➥ https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...al-142660.html

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 08:21   #13
JBP
Registered User
 
JBP's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Lake Erie, PA
Boat: Jeanneau Tonic 23
Posts: 524
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Not me. Yachting Monthly just being persnickity as a joke. When does a word that is commonly used incorrectly change meaning? "Irregardless" is now a recognized word
JBP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 08:42   #14
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,601
Wink Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBP View Post
Not me. Yachting Monthly just being persnickity as a joke. When does a word that is commonly used incorrectly change meaning? "Irregardless" is now a recognized word

Or more precisely, if we are going to be that way, pedantic.

That said, if you go on board a ship or shop industrial equipment, they recognize the important difference between a winch and a capstan.

So Yachting Monthly is curiously. An the English are (do see themselves as) keepers of the English language.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
https://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-02-2024, 12:36   #15
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,503
Re: Why Star vs Square Socket on Sail Winches?

And what do they think the North Americans, Australians, and New Zealanders are? Enquiring minds want to know!

Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
JPA Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
sail, winch

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WHY square sails point better than sloops. CruiseN Challenges 45 29-06-2021 09:46
Why do you have a shore power socket? BillKny Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 92 25-03-2021 22:50
Why do we have electric anchor winches when they clearly do not work. Anchor winches Fuss Anchoring & Mooring 111 19-10-2020 15:56
Star in the Ocean - A lonely and his beloved (the star) are crossing the ocean Velanera General Sailing Forum 18 21-12-2017 04:22
For Sale: Parasailor: 125 Square Meters (1345 Square Feet) Steve Rakoczy Classifieds Archive 5 03-02-2012 16:51

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.