Amsteel Blue Continuous Loops - locked brummel vs lock stitch

[Amsteelbluez]

Hi,

I've been making the continuous loops for hammock world with a locked brummel then bury the ends so that when you pull on the loop, the locked brummel will not undo.

Then there is lock stitching without the lock brummel, and the constrictor against the bury ends is what prevents it from undoing. The lock stitching holds it in place.


What are pros and cons for both? The locked brummel will show a small bump. Other than that any reason to choose one over the other?

[Ween]

No real advantage to either. How are you doing a brummel in a loop? Are you re-braiding the second end around the working loop?

As long as you are burying around 30+ dia in length I find these dyneema loops are very robust. My whole boat is slowly evolving over to soft links for all block attachments. For critical applications i "might" buy the very $$$ Harken loops but typically just sewn standard 2 bury dyneema loops. they do look nice and streamlined v. brummels.

Once you use the loop (i.e. bend it around a tight radius) the bury is so locked with friction it won't move at all.

That said, for applications like rigging deadeyes I'd still go with brummel loop and deep buries.

hope this is helpful?

[Amsteelbluez]

This is how it loops. End A goes through end B.the. end B goes through end A

Yup, will incorporate Samson recommended bury length

[Ween]

Aha, I see why you have a big lump. In a traditional brummel in a loop the second pass-through would be in a loop leg not and end (loose) leg. This can only be done by re-weaving the line around the loop. Never seen your way done before. Guess it is OK for small line to might be using? 4mm?

I can only imagine you'd be ok in your application just doing deep buries and whip a bit to lock when not under load.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Amsteelbluez

This is how it loops. End A goes through end B.the. end B goes through end A

Yup, will incorporate Samson recommended bury length

With the method pictured, you're actually burying each tail back into it's own standing part, so the only thing holding your loop together is some distorted fibers around the brummel. Why not just tie a granny knot and wrap duct tape around it?
The only method of making loops like that which will actually retain some strength is to do straight buries without the brummel, and lockstitch or whip the crossover. I'll bet it takes less time to clap on a whipping than to fiddle with the brummel anyway.

[Amsteelbluez]

I'm using 7/64(3mm) and will eventually 3/16 (5mm).

From my research, the bury still serves as the holding force and the lock acts as the 'stitch' to keep it in place when there is no load. Samson even uses the locked brummel in their instructions for whoopie sling eyes. Just have to make sure you bury as recommended.

https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/defa...rsn=ae4d2872_2

Although I do prefer the look without bump.

For 7/64, 3/16, and 7/16, what whipping twine diameter should I purchase? They say the diameter of 1 of the 12 strands but what is the exact diameter for each of the 3?


People say dental floss but Im selling these and would like a more professional look

[Benz]

^^ Samson's directions still use a brummel correctly: to lock an eye splice. When you use a brummel in a continuous loop, you are using a brummel where it doesn't belong. It does not add strength (go on, test a brumelled one and a straight-buried one till they both break), but it does add an unsightly, unnecessary, weak lump.
What whipping twine you use is immaterial: it's only purpose is to keep the splice from loosening when unloaded. #4 waxed polyester is fine.

[Amsteelbluez]

Thanks for clarification, very helpful and informative.

Just wanted to get a ballpark on the twine diameter that's used and possibly get some different colors

Will check out #4

[boat driver]

appearing you do not have a strength consideration?
Brummel is fine but subject to failure at high loads on the line.

[Amsteelbluez]

For the 7/64, the load is usually 1 person. 1600lb working load with a human hanging from it. I'm leaving those loops in the hammock world and focusing on the correct way rather L-36 shows.

[Amsteelbluez]

Another question for eye splices. What would you do, locked brummel or lock stitch? Seems like a common topic but would like to hear what this forum has to say.

Lock stitch would follow the 3 fid length bury, just like Samsons 12 strand class 2 eye splice.

Could the extra bends in the lock brummel weaken it?

I've been doing Samsons 12 strand class 2 eye splice with lock stitching.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Amsteelbluez

Another question for eye splices. What would you do, locked brummel or lock stitch? Seems like a common topic but would like to hear what this forum has to say.

Lock stitch would follow the 3 fid length bury, just like Samsons 12 strand class 2 eye splice.

Could the extra bends in the lock brummel weaken it?

I've been doing Samsons 12 strand class 2 eye splice with lock stitching.

The brummel weakens the splice a little, but unless you're winding up the load to dangerously near failure, it's not significant. I usually brummel uncovered eye splices like that: it gives the eye definition, and locks it in size while you make the rest of the splice. I still put a whipping on the splice throat to keep the tail from trying to wiggle back when it's unloaded.
Lock-stitching can look bulky if done with too large a twine, and untidy if not carefully done: a brummel and whip looks a lot better IMO.

[boat driver]

The brummel weakens the strength significantly over time, caused by internal friction heat as one factor over load up time.
The recreational market adapted the brummel splice as easy, fast , and short in length.
If not overly loaded, it is fine. But the significant break that killed a crewmember on the Volvo? Race was a vang stopper- the hitch was used in limited length space and continuous length. and after multiples of load/unloading it let go under load at the splice.
Like all recreational practices of safety /etc., if a doubt arises, research commercial requirements and then reverse engineer to the application. Often recreation manufactures build and routine maintence is not done routinely, and failure is inevitable at the wrong moment. As weight and expense are driving factors on vessels efficiency, sometimes more maintence diligence is needed.

[Benz]

^^What does the phrase "in limited length space and continuous length" mean?
Any chance you could explain further?

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by boat driver

The brummel weakens the strength significantly over time, caused by internal friction heat as one factor over load up time.

Could you please provide any links that support this? I thought a Brummel lock only reduced the strength of an eye splice by a minimal amount.

Originally Posted by boat driver

The recreational market adapted the brummel splice as easy, fast , and short in length.

Although multiple Brummel locks are an option for eyes where full strength is not needed and there is limited room for bury of the tail (5 apparently give nearly 80% of line strength without any bury) a single Brummel lock should only to be used as a substitute for lock stitching so that the tail does not slide out when there is no load on an eye splice, not to shorten tail bury length.

Originally Posted by boat driver

But the significant break that killed a crewmember on the Volvo? Race was a vang stopper- the hitch was used in limited length space and continuous length. and after multiples of load/unloading it let go under load at the splice.

I am not familiar with this accident, but there was one involving a Brummel lock (not part of a splice) in a Clipper race where instead of using two independent lines for the preventer, a continuous line was used with a midline eye formed by adding a Brummel lock. This is a totally inappropriate use for the Brummel lock and should not put people off using a Brummel lock correctly in an eye splice.