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Old 21-05-2019, 23:11   #226
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
also, as a further fyi, applies to both the splice and whipping solution

Attachment 192483

'in theory', Load on line in 'loop'
= (1/cos(1/2 throat angle))*(application load/2)
- there are some practical considerations which may modify this.
All the more reason not to clench the throat tightly at the base of the ring!

And also all the more reason use a large LF ring.

By the way, if the line wasn’t a loop, but was instead formed by a buried splice, then the force tearing the throat apart
= (tan(1/2 throat angle))*(application load/2)

Which is the same formula I have been working on

SWL
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 22-05-2019, 14:02   #227
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

I decided I needed to have the guys break 5 different designs (3 samples of each).

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Two of these designs I also made a set with a variation - with the tapered whipping (2nd from right) the one pictured is with paracord. I also made a set with 3mm amsteel. And the Bullseye (2nd from left) I made a set which was 'looser weave', thimble not totally securely captive.

The test lab should get the whole pile of samples in the mail on Friday. I hope they can break them sometime next week, but that will depend on their other projects.

The right most one is the 'standard commercial' approach - straight whipping. The next is a tapered whipping, which is the 'theoretical best' approach. the middle one is double spliced loops, perhaps the most common DIY design. The next is the bullseye, and the final is the simple cow hitch.
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Old 22-05-2019, 14:45   #228
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

This is what the 'looser weave' bullseye samples looked like. As I mentioned above, I don't consider this totally captive, but was curious if it would do anything to strength.

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Old 23-05-2019, 03:04   #229
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
I decided I needed to have the guys break 5 different designs (3 samples of each).

Attachment 192554

Two of these designs I also made a set with a variation - with the tapered whipping (2nd from right) the one pictured is with paracord. I also made a set with 3mm amsteel. And the Bullseye (2nd from left) I made a set which was 'looser weave', thimble not totally securely captive.

The test lab should get the whole pile of samples in the mail on Friday. I hope they can break them sometime next week, but that will depend on their other projects.

The right most one is the 'standard commercial' approach - straight whipping. The next is a tapered whipping, which is the 'theoretical best' approach. the middle one is double spliced loops, perhaps the most common DIY design. The next is the bullseye, and the final is the simple cow hitch.
That is a mammoth effort!
Results will be interesting.

With a larger ring (all I have used for the Bullseye, as two lots of line need to pass around the rim) the weave sits more neatly. The last lot I made in soft shackle form are shown below. The weave is much looser than with a smaller ring, but the ring is still well retained.

SWL

PS The most common one I have seen on cruising boats is a Brummel lock at the throat. A few ones with failed DIY whipping too.
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 23-05-2019, 03:56   #230
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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The most common one I have seen on cruising boats is a Brummel lock at the throat.
Curious - can you find a picture? I guess you would do the Brummel, and then make the end to end splice?

Should be weaker than the ones tested, because it would only have 2 strands in the high stress area. Whereas the ones tested have four strands.
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Old 23-05-2019, 03:59   #231
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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Curious - can you find a picture? I guess you would do the Brummel, and then make the end to end splice?
Yes, the bury then starts at the other end of the loop, rather than next to the ring.

I will photograph the next one I see. In a sec I will see if I can find any online images.
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 23-05-2019, 04:05   #232
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Breaking Waves View Post
Curious - can you find a picture? I guess you would do the Brummel, and then make the end to end splice?

Should be weaker than the ones tested, because it would only have 2 strands in the high stress area. Whereas the ones tested have four strands.

Mine are like that. All made B.B. (Before Bullseye). Made I think according to Toss' design. Yes, you define the throat with a Brummel lock then taper and tuck the tail. I guess it will be weaker than some other types, but they have been perfect in my application, once I sorted out the whipping problems with SWL's help years ago.



The last set of shackles I made are all your design -- with the ingenious collapsed Brummels instead of the diamond knot. For klutzes like me who can't manage the diamond. They are terrific and have given years of service. Not quite as pretty as an expertly made diamond or button knot, but not actually ugly, and taking 1/10 of the time to make.



When I need more strops with LFR's, I'll do Bullseyes, but I'm curious in any case to see what your testing shows.
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Old 23-05-2019, 04:23   #233
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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I guess it will be weaker than some other types, but they have been perfect in my application.
The consensus at the test lab is that all the 5 designs are “more than strong enough for yachting purposes” and that we are over thinking it. They believe the tapered whipping will be the strongest - near full strength of the loop and break at the end of one of the buries. They are curious about where and how several of the others will actually break.
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Old 23-05-2019, 05:19   #234
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

My personal guess is:

the tapered whipping and bullseye will both be near full strength (under static load). The bullseye very slightly less but not statistically significant with only a few samples.

The tapered whipping uses less amount of the expensive line, which the commercial guys like, but is not really relevant for yachting. The bullseye has an open question about dynamic load rubbing and heating - which we will not test at least in this round. SWL says not an issue in her experience.

The flat whipping and eye splices and clove hitch will be close together and somewhat less.

I agree with lab guess that all will be “damn strong”. I’m curious if the rings will distort - I am guessing they will.


And hopefully I will be wrong about some of that and the breaking will reveal new knowledge.
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Old 23-05-2019, 16:12   #235
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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My personal guess is:

the tapered whipping and bullseye will both be near full strength (under static load). The bullseye very slightly less but not statistically significant with only a few samples.

If the “tapered whipping” or “lacing”, as I call it, is made while there is some load on the loop there is no additional stress on the system. You can’t get any better than that .

This was the lacing system I came up with a few years ago. It was not laced under load so you can see there is a slight kink in the loop where the lacing starts. If this was not present, I think the lacing would sit snuggly with no tendency to shift down, even under extreme load.

The second image shows how the cordage is secured around the ring. If made in single braid the ring can be removed, the weave slid down and the tails can then be buried. Otherwise they can be passed back down the weave and knotted underneath.

It is however, more complicated and it takes longer, and needs extra cordage and looks more clunky (not to be underestimated ).
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 24-05-2019, 00:33   #236
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
If the “tapered whipping” or “lacing”, as I call it, is made while there is some load on the loop there is no additional stress on the system. You can’t get any better than that .

This was the lacing system I came up with a few years ago. It was not laced under load so you can see there is a slight kink in the loop where the lacing starts. If this was not present, I think the lacing would sit snuggly with no tendency to shift down, even under extreme load.

The second image shows how the cordage is secured around the ring. If made in single braid the ring can be removed, the weave slid down and the tails can then be buried. Otherwise they can be passed back down the weave and knotted underneath.

It is however, more complicated and it takes longer, and needs extra cordage and looks more clunky (not to be underestimated ).

I think you came up with that for me, and I can testify that they work superbly well. The reason I haven't yet made any Bullseyes is because these Just Work. I don't think they look clunky, either, even if they are not quite as elegant as the lovely Bullseye.


I did try putting some of these strops under load before lacing, and my lacing was slightly different from your design, but I found that they were a little floppy when done that way. So the last ones I did were not laced with the strop under load. Rather, I concentrated on getting enough bulk between the legs and pulling it all quite tight. With enough bulk between the legs, it's ok that the legs are slightly tweaked when a load is on -- the lacing can absorb a bit of this load. Years and tens of thousands of miles later, they are all still going strong.
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Old 24-05-2019, 02:25   #237
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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I think you came up with that for me, and I can testify that they work superbly well. The reason I haven't yet made any Bullseyes is because these Just Work. I don't think they look clunky, either, even if they are not quite as elegant as the lovely Bullseye.


I did try putting some of these strops under load before lacing, and my lacing was slightly different from your design, but I found that they were a little floppy when done that way. So the last ones I did were not laced with the strop under load. Rather, I concentrated on getting enough bulk between the legs and pulling it all quite tight. With enough bulk between the legs, it's ok that the legs are slightly tweaked when a load is on -- the lacing can absorb a bit of this load. Years and tens of thousands of miles later, they are all still going strong.
I’m very glad they worked well for you.
I take back the “clunky” remark .

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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 25-05-2019, 00:48   #238
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

I’ve just completed a Bullseye strop on a wide LFR. I’ve set the knot between winches and will cut the tails once I get some whipping twine (off the boat right now and none at home, sigh). It is made of 8mm coated Dyneema and measures 12cm from the ring to the end of the shackle (closed). The LFR seems completely secure within the weave. I will be using this for our third reef line (rather than the line going through the sail cringle).


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Thanks so much for your instructions!
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Old 25-05-2019, 02:53   #239
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

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I’ve just completed a Bullseye strop on a wide LFR. I’ve set the knot between winches and will cut the tails once I get some whipping twine (off the boat right now and none at home, sigh). It is made of 8mm coated Dyneema and measures 12cm from the ring to the end of the shackle (closed). The LFR seems completely secure within the weave. I will be using this for our third reef line (rather than the line going through the sail cringle).


Thanks so much for your instructions!
Hi Fxy
You’re welcome .

Your Bullseye soft shackle looks excellent! The weave looks well balanced with that combination of line and ring diameters.

I think this is where the Bulleye particularly shines. Lashing and whipping is about the only other way to get a short strop, and then it is difficult to get good load distribution and it is not removable.

Are you planning to use it like Sailing Totem did?
https://www.sailfeed.com/2017/09/low...t-but-sweeter/
Image below.

By the way, I have not been adding any whipping to the ends of my diamond knots lately. After pretensioning the knot on a winch I have simply cut a generous tail (about a cm) and fluffed it up for easy of use (the three recent ones had not yet been fluffed when the photo was taken). I find this more user friendly than a hard stump.

SWL
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Unveiling Bullseye strops for low friction rings
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Old 25-05-2019, 03:54   #240
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Re: Unveiling Bullseye Strops for low friction rings

PS I have found that when reefing, our mainsail only stacks neatly on one tack, depending on which side the reefing line comes in. I wonder if a seperate LF ring will help this issue.

Fxy, is this why you are using an LF ring in this application?

SWL
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