Square-Rigging System for Sail Boat - Info, Please

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by first wind

when sailing down wind, lift is not what moves your boat; drag is. in other words, when sailing down wind, the wind pushes your boat along.

also, they didn't think the world was flat before Columbus sailed to America.

This is a very old thread! 6 years.. Anyway, I love to beat a dead horse.

A well adjusted and set square rig can continue to provide lift rather than just drag even dead downwind. Much like a parasail spinnaker does. It helps dampen roll and can improve speed.

The squaresails sheets need to be eased slightly to let the wind flow though the slot, down to the next square below.

You can spill the wind very effectively by easing the sheets carefully so the sail is mostly pulling up rather than forward. This quickly depowers the sail without flogging.

[Snowpetrel]

This is a great picture that shows Duyfkens sails depowered. The mainsails sheets and tacks are eased and it is lifting nicely rather than driving. The foresail is also lifting and the foretopsail is lowered with the sheets eased depowering it nicely. The spritsail is the only thing powered up.

She is a remarkably effective sailing machine. She sailed better to windward than any squarerigger I have sailed on. There is many layers of very sophisticated thinking in her hull and rig, and to be honest we know only a small fraction of what the original crew and builders would have about how to make these ships sail well.

[Snowpetrel]

Since I am on a roll beating up the poor dead horse, here is Duyfken powered up to windward.



And with topsails reefed to depower her. The Bowlines stop the squaresail flogging and this looks ugly but is actually quite effective. Later theu invented reefing, footropes and buntlines.

[OldBawley]

Sorry to induce a bit of a thread drift, concerns downwind sailing with a heavy ketch.


Gaffers sometimes use a “Ringtail “ sail extensions to enlarge the main.
Someone ever seen a ringtail set on a modern triangular mainsail ?

[Snowpetrel]

Ha, no I haven't, but I love the idea. If it was set up right the yards could be braced "square " athwartships so when you gybe the ringtail doesnt foul the backstay. The gaff/upper yard could be clipped onto the topping lift, its own halyard or another line to control it while raising and lowering.

I would probably go a shallow triangular head with the upper yard about a meter or so below the head of the sail and made from something light and flexible inside a padded pocket in the sail.

Sounds like a fun sail to play with!

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[OldBawley]

I was thinking about a “Lug” spar made out of carbon or cane, some 3 yards long, maybe even four yards. Hoist with the boom lift.
Triangular sail with lug spar in a sleeve of the spinnaker cloth, placed at the aft end of the sheeted out mainsail. Not behind the sail as they use ringtails but in front seen from wind direction.
With a lug type of ringtail gybing would not be possible because of the back stays, but hey, you just get it down to gybe.
Could effectively build a gaff sail out of a bermudan sail.

[Snowpetrel]

Kind of like a fore and aft stunsail.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YvhTCfMJc1E

It always makes me laugh how gaff rig was derided as being bad to windward, and pointy sails were better. Look at all the performance boats now! Big square top "gaff" sails...

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[Jolly Roger]

If you want a square-sail system, take a look at my website. www.schooner_Britannia.com

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

If you want a square-sail system, take a look at my website. www.schooner_Britannia.com

“Can Not Open Page”. Either one.

[Jolly Roger]

Try this HOME

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

Try this HOME

That works

Nice boat!

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by Jolly Roger

If you want a square-sail system, take a look at my website. www.schooner_Britannia.com

Cheers..

I'm dumb, others multiple quote..
Yet cheers again for beating the dead horse. My thoughts exactly.

Spinnakers are really nice but their point of sail is broad reach to run. Maybe a loss at dead run, I don't know because we're to scared to dead run. At point of dead run, if you're of same level of experience as I, the sail becomes a lie and catches wind. Controlling vessels propulsion is wind, not helm nor sheet. Vulnerability. But just off dead run, back flow of spinnaker starts to develop substantial torque. Now propulsion system controlled better by sheets and at "hell men", eg skipper yelling complaints again because of a miss take. From point absence of dead, point of sail can reach a true beat.

However..
Cheers again.. I'm ignorant of square headed rigs but others use them. They can physically sail from a higher true reach towards tacking points all the way around to the other side.

Is/ain't old Tech. Ships were sail. Trade winds never changed. Way better sail for ocean passage unless racing backwards at times rather than patience. Back then, coastal cruisers had Bermuda, sloop, ketch, Schooner, etc..

Pros of triangle sails.. sail higher points.
Cons of triangle sails. Don't sail dead.

Pros of square sails. Higher throttle response during beat into chop. Less rotational force. Sails dead.
Cons of square sails. Point isn't as high. I am ignorant of how to use, are you?

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Since I am on a roll beating up the poor dead horse, here is Duyfken powered up to windward.



And with topsails reefed to depower her. The Bowlines stop the squaresail flogging and this looks ugly but is actually quite effective. Later theu invented reefing, footropes and buntlines.

I don't know.
Similar experience was with a point headed spinnaker BEATING into a gales chop.
Amongst the yelling and tension was a simple sight of helm and a few words associated with that I just do eye job leading edge, he had helm and used vessels leverage but also running backstays to clew head.

I survived a masters class of kung f u later and was told to not tell. Might have been knot tell. We were plane sailing into a gale with nice calm yet tight eyes.

Leading edge. Square sails clew leading edge is impression I get. Hence during heavy, if miss take is leveraged, distance from fulcrum near to nothing. A much safer rider if you can hold on.
Modern sloops clew brace junction of leach and foot. Further from source, distance on fulcrum is force to torque. They just don't sail as smooth.

Love from a white belt.

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

This is a great picture that shows Duyfkens sails depowered. The mainsails sheets and tacks are eased and it is lifting nicely rather than driving. The foresail is also lifting and the foretopsail is lowered with the sheets eased depowering it nicely. The spritsail is the only thing powered up.

She is a remarkably effective sailing machine. She sailed better to windward than any squarerigger I have sailed on. There is many layers of very sophisticated thinking in her hull and rig, and to be honest we know only a small fraction of what the original crew and builders would have about how to make these ships sail well.

Cheers for that hint.
Only took me 30+ years to understand and that's how she did it.
I hope clew useful, I'm out.. just admiring too.

When tall ships visited, a quarter starboard stern reach down the channel.
Full sail yet slow. Asking why, verbal response from our skipper was probably engines astern to parade.

Anyway, asking to launch kite and join in, told don't bother, might need to manuvour , just sit back and look.

We had right of way to everyone besides her majesty, windward, starboard, sail.
Told not to worry because if she heave hoed we'd be plenty agile.
Told skipper he was a bit rude taking her wind.
Look up response.
LoL our 30 foot stick barely touched gunnel.

Didn't realise depowering system until now.
Thanks.

They'd be a beast IMHO

[CruiseN]

Originally Posted by marujo.sortudo

Actually, square sails were used because they did know better in those days. Prior to the advent of modern sailing and rigging materials, individual sails had to be kept to a reasonably small size and, sailing ships that were used for commerce, war, etc. were much bigger. Beyond that, ships designed for square sails could actually sail quite well upwind (I'm not talking about boats with a single square sail here); although, not as well as a Marconi rig. Of course, this hardly mattered, since as we all know, the easiest way to cross an ocean is to follow the trades and traditionally rigged boats were excellent at this and FAST (I'm talking clippers here, not longboats.) Every sailing rig that's ever been used in the world has some advantages and disadvantages and all of them were designed for the job they did and built with materials available at the time. The reason that most boats you see today are Marconi sloops/cutters and fly spinnakers is largely because of racing rules. Of course, because of those same racing rules, Marconi rigs have had more technological development in recent decades which translates to a better understanding of how to optimize modern materials to their use. Many other rigs actually have advantages that would be interesting to most cruisers.

There are actually a good number of cruisers out there who have used a square sail as a downwind sail. If you have an interest in making your own sail, it can certainly be a very cheap alternative to a spinnaker or twins. They are also very easy to rig up for self-steering downwind, but so are twins. On Tom Steele's Tahiti ketch Adios, he sailed 30,000 miles under his square sail while sailing around the world twice. In Self-Steering without a Windvane, there are some explanations of the rig, and a picture of one rigged up on a little "plastic classic" Marconi sloop. Of course, if you want to do this, I doubt they'll be any kits and you'll have to gather information from many sources. The Sailmaker's Apprentice can tell you how to make a square sail, but you'll need to look elsewhere to decide how to rig it. I'd talk to a rigger that is familiar with both traditional and modern systems (Brion Toss, perhaps) and see what they think about your particular boat.

If you have a sailing dinghy or can borrow a friends, you could probably experiment with some rigging options on a small scale there (although, all the lines associated with the square rig will make a mess of the dinghy...)

Yeah, exactly..

I don't understand system but those whom practice on square rigs might enjoy concentrating Guy Eye at head level and enjoy tackfully learning how to splice the wind rather than disturb winds flow.
They'd go alright in my opinion also.

High clean clear air with high RPM throttle response at cost of a slightly lower point.
Cheaper to build triangles is probably a big factor too.