Seriously, why do people like in mast furling?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bash

Hello Dockhead. Just returning to the forum after a few years off to write a book. Nice to see I haven't really missed anything. [emoji3]

Folks, learning to shorten sail is a skill regardless of the specific mechanism employed. Learn the skill and you won't have problems other than for rare mechanical gear failure. Learn to maintain mechanical gear and you'll significantly reduce failure in that area as well.

In the 10.5 years I've sailed my current boat with Selden in-mast furling, the only failure I've experienced was blowing out the clew block on the OEM sail. The dacron threads had rotted in the sun, and the lesson was quickly learned with a little help from a local sail loft. Otherwise, it's all been smooth sailing because I can shorten sail to any size at any time without leaving the cockpit. Slick.

Hey, welcome back, Bash! You've been missed!

[desodave]

I am a coastal cruiser in the Salish Sea and its northern islands, and have a Selden in-mast system with vertical battens on our Hunter 38. It's my camel and I've gotten used to it over 12 years of owning the boat. It did jam twice on me in the first year, and on the way in at the top spreader both times. Worked both out - literally - and got it furled. Thankfully the jams occurred in low wind situations.

After discussion with the local dealer, and their dealing with Hunter, the vertical battens were replaced - each with 2 much thinner ones. It has worked just fine since then although it took a few years for me to feel completely comfortable with it and get over the "jam anxiety".

I have really appreciated all the forums dealing with in-mast systems, and read every one of them - however repetitive they may be at times. Some of you are excellent at explaining technique and I've really benefited from the learning opportunities. I have also since concluded that my lack of experience/knowledge may have contributed to the jams that I had - it wasn't just the batten thickness at work.

I'll make no comments about other systems because I have very limited experience ( or none at all) with them. But I would happily get another in-mast system - it works well for us.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Pete7

But is it a severe performance loss? I disagree. As DH points out, if you don't sail much to windward you may not notice. This certainly applies to us, we won't bash into a F5 for very long. Whilst it might feel exciting with the rail in the water, spray across the deck, yacht leaning over further than a medieval Italian building, both SWMBO and the dog are not so keen and its hard on the body after a while. Have you seen what happens when a pan of spaghetti comes off the stove and goes down the back of the cooker into the bilge and how long it took to get soggy spaghetti all out before it blocked the pumps

So as a cruising yacht we are really interested in reaching and running. When we raise the sails, spend a bit of time trimming (often making things worse) we are then close to hull speed, I am not sure were this severe performance loss is, or how much? a knot or even 2 knots? Perhaps worth mentioning we have a masthead rig, so the main is quite small to start with. I am just not convinced adding say 10% of roach would achieve much. If I wanted best bang for the buck then fitting a £1000 folding prop will guarantee 3/4 of a knot on all points of sail for the same cost as a slab main.

For us, the convenience of quickly putting the main away when coastal sailing or quickly reefing as we round a headland to find stronger winds is worth any small loss in speed or pointing ability. Sailing on a long passage you might not change the sail settings all day. Coastal sailing, stopping for lunch and a swim might mean a dozen changes and several in and outs.

Pete

Ahh, come on, Pete!

1. That post was simply an argument that I could reasonably say that for me the loss of performance was important. This is relative to MY boat and the sailing conditions where WE sail. I do not need to have sailed a similar boat with IMF to know this.

Boat: Fractional rig, big main, which provides most of the drive, especially to windward.

Sailing conditions: We often sail in light airs, and to windward. You may not, but we do. Under such conditions, the roach area is important to performance. It is also important in other points of sail, and in varying wind strengths


Reefing: DH feels that a slab reefed sail has poorer shape than an IMF reefed sail. I disagree, for my observations show that the shape is good in all three reef positions... flatter in each decrement of sail area, just as he claims his IMF sail is. Mine has the advantage of being behind a slimmer mast section, and that is an obvious advantage over the fat mast section of an IMF rig, and it maintains its roachy plan shape. There is no disagreement about the ease of reefing with IMF... and I'd be happy to have that convenience. I'm just not ready to pay the price (literally and figuratively).

Importance of performance, and the loss thereof: You say that when you hoist the sails and trim them you are at or near hull speed. I suspect some exaggeration here, unless you are always sailing in F4+ on a beam reach. Then you say that you are happy to have a 1 or even a 2 knot loss of speed from your IMF main. These two statements seem contradictory to me... perhaps I don't get your point, but I sure don't regard a loss of 1 or 2 knots as acceptable. Let's see, IIRC you are sailing a boat with a hull speed somewhere around 6-7 knots. You are then willing to give up as much as 30% (approximately) of your SOG, and it wouldn't matter to you? Sure matters to me!

So there you go... for my boat and my sailing style, the difference in performance is important. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of their IMF, for I understand the appeal. It just isn't for me, right now, doin' what I like to do.
Oh, BTW, I already have the fancy folding prop...

Jim

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by desodave

I am a coastal cruiser in the Salish Sea and its northern islands, and have a Selden in-mast system with vertical battens on our Hunter 38. It's my camel and I've gotten used to it over 12 years of owning the boat. It did jam twice on me in the first year, and on the way in at the top spreader both times. Worked both out - literally - and got it furled. Thankfully the jams occurred in low wind situations.

After discussion with the local dealer, and their dealing with Hunter, the vertical battens were replaced - each with 2 much thinner ones. It has worked just fine since then although it took a few years for me to feel completely comfortable with it and get over the "jam anxiety".

I have really appreciated all the forums dealing with in-mast systems, and read every one of them - however repetitive they may be at times. Some of you are excellent at explaining technique and I've really benefited from the learning opportunities. I have also since concluded that my lack of experience/knowledge may have contributed to the jams that I had - it wasn't just the batten thickness at work.

I'll make no comments about other systems because I have very limited experience ( or none at all) with them. But I would happily get another in-mast system - it works well for us.

Hi Desodave, so with your 12 years experience using imf what are your tips regarding furling and unfurling?

[David B]

Originally Posted by FutureStories

I understand the appeal to a furling main, but in mast is down right scary!

Everyone says "it's gotten so much better"... better implies there's still failure. And when you've got the mast partially furled in and it jams if you've got to reduce area more than what are you going to do???

My astonishment with people's obsession with in mast furling lead me to talk to some riggers with a booth next to mine at the sail show this past weekend. And they confirmed all my suspicions and made some other good points I hadn't thought about other than safety... (but why do there need to be other options above safety, shouldn't that be the primary concern???)

After hanging out with the riggers for a few days and drinking many beers together we talked about a few main points that you should probably consider when thinking about a furling headsail:

Pros to boom furling:
-full battens (saves on sail cost overtime)
-sail can be dropped even if furled jams! Then you flake it like you would any other main)
-accessibility (if the sail does jam you can fit your hands in and adjust it safely on deck)
-manual override (electric winch is customary, but if you've gotta get down and dirty to crank it you can)

Negatives:
-cost (its expensive, about $20k expensive, BUT in boom mains can last over twice as long as in mast, also the hardware CAN be taken with you to your next boat and the old boom can be put back on)
-it's bulky (but you're really not supposed to hit your head on them anyway!)

If you don't have the money for in boom furling get yourself some lazy jacks and a good pack! They work great, and won't be a safety concern.

If you're too lazy to handle lazy jacks and too cheap to get in boom furling go buy a power boat.

Sorry for the rant, but it had to happen! I've been frustrated with the in mast furling obsession for a while.

I think it's just ignorance that produces such comments. I was ignorant of in-mast furling once. Then we were presented with the dilemma, of if we wanted the boat we had our hearts set on, it came with in-mast. I asked about changing the mast - none left. I was told "give it a try - you can certainly convert later, but give it a try first, and it will become your friend"

Well our in-mast (Selden) is our friend - became so in the first year (just finished our sixth year). Sure, there is less area, but you can have a fully battened sail with in-mast. Sure, there are stories of people having jams, but that is either an older system, a stretched sail, or just not furling correctly - all human stuff, that I am not immune to (I am human), but so far, in six years, our in-mast has worked just fine, and saved us a lot of hassle, plus it is great to be able to adjust the size of your main without having to go into the wind (try reefing a slab or in-boom system of a beam reach .....).

So I will leave it at that - just because one person "has heard" does not mean that it's factual. If in-mast was so bad, then there would not be so many out there. After all, as the opening to this "rant" to use the authors words 'people like in-mast furling' for a reason - actually many reasons.
There are compromises, but so is life a compromise.

[daletournier]

This thread has got me thinking more about my IMF and I just read the following article

http://www.sailboat-cruising.com/in-mast-furling.html

The authors boat is similar to mine, but a couple of sizes down, I'm assuming he has the sparcraft IMF? like I do.

In the article he suggests he can pull his main in (furl) by hand in normal conditions. There's no way I can do this on mine.

Can others? Interested in other IMF users, or can you?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

This thread has got me thinking more about my IMF and I just read the following article

The Case for In-Mast Furling and Reefing Systems on Cruising Sailboats

The authors boat is similar to mine, but a couple of sizes down, I'm assuming he has the sparcraft IMF? like I do.

In the article he suggests he can pull his main in (furl) by hand in normal conditions. There's no way I can do this on mine.

Can others? Interested in other IMF users, or can you?

I use an electric winch, but it's a big sail. For a boat this size, I think an electric or hydraulic furler built into the mast is better, than the endless furling line system I have.

Furling in is straightforward with no risk of jamming I have ever seen or felt. You want some wind in the sail -- so I have found that you might even head off a bit if you are hard on the wind. You do not however want the sail to be powered up, so put on the vang, let out the mainsheet, and feather the sail a bit. Then you put enough slack in the outhaul to allow the sail to be furled in without too much force being required.

Furling out is when you have to be careful to avoid a jam. The sail forms a roll inside the mast, and this roll can become partially unrolled, filling up the mast chamber. It allow the part of the sail which is coming out, to pick up sail from the next roll -- and that's how you get a jam. The reason why jams almost always occur in people's first year of using the system, is because if you are watching what you are doing, you can see this kind of jam developing long before the sail is really jammed. To prevent it from starting, you just need to tighten the roll inside the mast before you get started pulling it out. It took me some time to understand that you can't do that by belaying the outhaul and furling in. That causes friction between the rolls which prevents the roll from tightening up. The outhaul needs to be loose, and just furl in a few inches. The furler will tighten the roll before it starts to pull the clew in, and Bob's your uncle.

A baggy Dacron sail is MUCH more prone to difficulties furling, than a flat laminate one. Laminate sails and in-mast furling go together like cookies and cream. Laminate is thinner and lighter, and is more flexible. Laminate is expensive, but in-mast furling greatly extends the life of the sail, maybe by double, with ideal storage rolled up inside the mast without creases, with perfect protection from weather and UV.

[Moody Mike]

I have hydraulic in mast furling I love it. I have a Carbineer 46 that I almost single hand. My wife has MS so cant help very much I can reef in 30 secs on both masts. Its quick tidy & has only given a problem when I had a crew on board who didn't know what he was doing. The hydraulic drive is very powerful ,its a very early type & I have been told it would cost a fortune to replicate today. I previously owned a Moody 54 with in mast furling that used an endless loop & electric winch. That system was painful to put away we had to turn up into wind & be very careful it didn't bunch up & jam. Mind you the Moody had a 75 ft mast the Carbineer being a ketch is only 50 ft. Im a cruiser not a racer but we still go for optimum performance and usually sit close to our hull speed.

[Martkimwat]

Can anyone show me an example of a racing yacht with in mast reefing? if not, one has to ask why not.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

Can anyone show me an example of a racing yacht with in mast reefing? if not, one has to ask why not.

The last time I checked..... this was a "Cruisers Forum." Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Martkimwat

Can anyone show me an example of a racing yacht with in mast reefing? if not, one has to ask why not.

It's been answered a number of times here, Imf mains aren't as performance orientated, but from a racing perspective no one is disbuting this, and from a cruising perspective no one is disputing this although the performance difference when purely cruising may not be as significant as it would be in racing.

[Eder]

In mast furling encourages putting up the main even for 10 minute trips etc...just too easy to get sailing and to put away.

[donradcliffe]

The furling masts used to scream like banshees in marinas when the wind came round from the back or sides. Have they fixed that, or do all British marinas sound like berserk pipe organs??

[J Clark H356]

I usually go by hand but sometimes use my winch - not electric- just depends. You can feel when it starts to jam. If so, just pull the sail back out, make some slight adjustments and start again. With an older sail like I have, you must pay attention when furling it in. Same thing, but less necessary, after the sail is about 1/3 of the way out coming out of the mast.

[desodave]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Hi Desodave, so with your 12 years experience using imf what are your tips regarding furling and unfurling?

Dale - yours were some of the best explanations, if I remember correctly !
2 best things I figured out were 1)the vang tension - remembering to make sure it is eased off when bringing the sail out (especially) or in ; and 2) realizing that it worked a lot better on the port tack because of the furl direction. Vang has always been tightened when the iron genny is on and I wouldn't think about it.

I also agree with the earlier comment about not forcing anything - nothing good happens. Realizing that I just had to unload the sail to adjust the reef rather than turning up into the wind has made things a lot smoother. I pay a lot more attention to how the sail is furling in and keeping some tension on the outhaul to keep wrinkles and folds out. I've got a lot better at working both lines myself so the Admiral can helm the boat while I'm adjusting the main. I get the sail where I want it and she keeps the boat on course - previously I was trying to helm and work one line.

I had limited sailing experience when we bought the boat - a few charters mostly - so the IMF looked a lot simpler than I've realized it actually is. I liked ( and still do) that it keeps my 68 year old body in the cockpit running the boat - the Admiral likes it that way too.