Seriously, why do people like in mast furling?

[J Clark H356]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Camel and crocodile analogies VS experience... the winner is?

Experience wins hands down!

[donradcliffe]

I've had a lot of experience with slab reefing (150,000 miles), and a little (<5000 mile) with in boom furling. I've almost never used in mast furling, but I have seen other boats use it. I have a hard time believing that 90% of the UK boats use in mast furlers, because my experience was that less than 5% of the RTW cruising boats had them.

To slab reef or unreef going to close reaching or going to weather takes me on the order of two minutes singlehanded. Going downwind wing on wing it takes about 5 times as long, as it involves easing the halyard 3 feet or so, then sucking up on the clew reefing line to get the sail off the spreaders, then repeating the process until the reef tack is low enough to get on the reefing hook. A little tedious, but way better than getting into weather gear">foul weather gear, closing up the boat, and turning into the wind. I can report one problem --the reefing line broke and I had to tie a spare on.

Reefing on a roller furling boom is a bit more complicated, as it involves setting the boom height at an exact angle. The boat I was on had an indicator like a second vang, with a piston going into a tube. The piston had colors marking the required angle for trouble-free furling. Reefing going downwind involved taking the jib off the pole, oversheeting it, then heading up until the mailsail had a little bubble in it.

My experience with in mast furling has mostly been observing other boats, like the 60 ft Swan that pulled into the Isla Mujeres anchorage, tried to furl the main, and jammed the sail. It took two hours of flapping sail, with a guy up the mast, before they were able to resolve things. Then there was the boat on the Caribbean 1500 that reported they had cut their mainsail away during the night.

I have gone on deck to slab reef hundreds of times, and most of the time I don't even put a harness on. I have been up the mast at sea a few dozen times, fortunately only a couple of times when going to weather, and only once double handed. I still remember the bruises and the pain and the terror.

[Connemara]

[QUOTE= snip

As far as in-boom furling is concerned:

Very few people here have tried it, so we don't get a lot of comments about it. If it were better than in-mast furling, I bet it would be a whole lot more popular than it is. It's been around for decades.[/QUOTE]

I think it's the cost. We have a Leisure-Furl boom on Above the Fold and it is excellent. But it came with the boat. Somewhere I have the invoice for its installation and it was several thousand dollars.

Connemara

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I have a hard time believing that 90% of the UK boats use in mast furlers, because my experience was that less than 5% of the RTW cruising boats had them.. . .

It's definitely true. Not all UK boats -- I'm excluding boats under 45 feet and racing boats or racer/cruisers.

Just go to the Oyster or Discovery sites, or look at Oysters and Discoveries on yachtworld.com, and you'll see.

Ping gave us an interesting data point on Argentina. I can give a similar data point on Cowes Yacht Haven, where my boat will spend the winter. Cowes of course is the Urheimat of yacht racing, the center of that world. I love Cowes because over on the Isle of Wight, casual London weekend sailors can't get there easily enough to want to be there. Those will stick to the River Hamble or Portsmouth on the mainland. On the Island there is a high percentage of the truly hard core. Especially in winter.

When I left my boat last week, there were about 50 boats in the water and a similar number on hardstanding. The famous Jolie Brise was visiting there, winner of the first Fastnet race in 1925, although she is based in the Hamble these days.

Cowes Yacht Haven is the main base for Cowes Week and a lot of famous racing boats call this place home, so there are Maxis and Open 60's and Mini Transats galore (I copied the Mini Transat sheet lead system for my own boat a few years ago).

I happened to notice last week that there was not a single cruising boat with slab reefing there. 100% in-mast furling, not 90%. Excepting only 3 gaffers (which is also a rig I really love). Not a single in-boom furler, although we sometimes see those on the really big cruising boats like Oyster 825's.

You even see in-mast furling in RORC races. I guess 20% or more of the Fastnet fleet last time had it. I would not, personally, want to race a boat with in-mast furling, but in really windy conditions it is not such a big disadvantage.

As I said, I am no fan boy of in-mast reefing and my next boat will have slab reefing and a roachy full batten main. I'm just recording facts here and hoping to dispel some myths.


Up here, differently from Argentina, apparently, in-mast furling is just about universal on large cruising boats. You sometimes see in-boom furling on really big (70'+) boats. You sometimes see slab reefing on modern "wedgie" boats with very small self-tacking jibs. But for normal large cruising boats, you would have a lot of trouble buying one, with any other rig than in-mast furling. Tastes differ in different countries, obviously.

[Hobie_ind]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

My favourite response to this type of comment is...

"For some, a camel may be a prized possession. I have never owned a camel. Still, I am 100% confident that I do not want or need a camel."

I don't think it was your intent, but with just a few small clarifications, you REALLY did summarize well how a lot of these threads go.

OP Asked: "I'm looking at an overland expedition across the center of Australia. Thoughts on camels as for this type of expedition?"

Common CF Response: "For some, a camel may be a prized possession. I have never owned a camel. I saw a camel spit on someone at a zoo once and my friend's sister's brother-in-law's father-in-law fell off of a camel once so they are clearly mean spirited dangerous animals. I walk with my lunch in a knapsack when I go across town and it's the most reliable and safe method of transportation. I don't understand why people are so lazy now. I am 100% confident that YOU do not want or need a camel. All those others who say they've used camels and it worked are just justifying their choice because of ego. Seriously, why do people like camels?"

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

I don't think it was your intent, but with just a few small clarifications, you REALLY did summarize well how a lot of these threads go.

OP Asked: "I'm looking at an overland expedition across the center of Australia. Thoughts on camels as for this type of expedition?"

Common CF Response: "For some, a camel may be a prized possession. I have never owned a camel. I saw a camel spit on someone at a zoo once and my friend's sister's brother-in-law's father-in-law fell off of a camel once so they are clearly mean spirited dangerous animals. I walk with my lunch in a knapsack when I go across town and it's the most reliable and safe method of transportation. I don't understand why people are so lazy now. I am 100% confident that YOU do not want or need a camel. All those others who say they've used camels and it worked are just justifying their choice because of ego. Seriously, why do people like camels?"

Excellent!

[El Pinguino]

MAJOR correction

Originally Posted by Dockhead

...

Ping gave us an interesting data point on Argentina Chile. I can give a similar data point on Cowes Yacht Haven,


Up here, differently from Argentina Chile apparently, in-mast furling is just about universal on large cruising boats.........

They would like to think they own Isla Navarino but they don't....

Meanwhile there is an Aerorig boat -owned by a friend - laid up in the next 'rack', it has been to Antarctica more than once while another friend is on an 18 metre two masted Aerorig boat in South Georgia just now.

So Aerorig is more common than in mast furling down here....

[Don C L]

Ok I don’t mean to denigrate anything I am not using, but for new folks here I think it should be noted that, whatever system you use, it is wise to look at it and ask, “if this fails, what are the consequences and what are my options?” And then be ready for it.
My old donkey is pretty slow but I still get there! Wish I had a camel!

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

I don't think it was your intent, but with just a few small clarifications, you REALLY did summarize well how a lot of these threads go.

OP Asked: "I'm looking at an overland expedition across the center of Australia. Thoughts on camels as for this type of expedition?"

Common CF Response: "For some, a camel may be a prized possession. I have never owned a camel. I saw a camel spit on someone at a zoo once and my friend's sister's brother-in-law's father-in-law fell off of a camel once so they are clearly mean spirited dangerous animals. I walk with my lunch in a knapsack when I go across town and it's the most reliable and safe method of transportation. I don't understand why people are so lazy now. I am 100% confident that YOU do not want or need a camel. All those others who say they've used camels and it worked are just justifying their choice because of ego. Seriously, why do people like camels?"

By George I think you've got it!

They could have used pack mules, land rovers, or all terrain vehicles. But the ones who decided to use camels, will argue to death that camels are the only way to go.

Same with those who have laid out 1000s upon 1000s for inmast furling. How could they possibly manage a sail that large while holding a beer otherwise? ;-)

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

By George I think you've got it!

They could have used pack mules, land rovers, or all terrain vehicles. But the ones who decided to use camels, will argue to death that camels are the only way to go.

Same with those who have laid out 1000s upon 1000s for inmast furling. How could they possibly manage a sail that large while holding a beer otherwise? ;-)

I don't believe anyone on this thread who uses in-mast furling has criticized the slab reefing system, in fact.... several of us can and have actually used all three methods.

But "Seriously, why do people" even care what other people choose to use for reefing, and why does it seem to bother some of them so much?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

MAJOR correction

They would like to think they own Isla Navarino but they don't....

Meanwhile there is an Aerorig boat -owned by a friend - laid up in the next 'rack', it has been to Antarctica more than once while another friend is on an 18 metre two masted Aerorig boat in South Georgia just now.

So Aerorig is more common than in mast furling down here....

Sorry about the coastal confusion!

So how do the owners like their Aerorigs? Haven't heard much about those lately.

[twohapence]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I don't believe anyone on this thread who uses in-mast furling has criticized the slab reefing system, in fact.... several of us can and have actually used all three methods.

But "Seriously, why do people" even care what other people choose to use for reefing, and why does it seem to bother some of them so much?

I had in boom furling. Awful. There's so much delamination of the airflow between the mast and the sail due to the standoffs that you lose performance. It's overly complex and needed winching up and down. It's expensive. Too complex.

I've just bought a new boat and am thrilled to be back to slab reefing. KISS

[Jim Cate]

But Jim, although you are extremely experienced you aren't when it comes to inmast furling, of course you have an opinion but it's not backed by much, if any user experience. I'm sure you have seen a couple jammed furlers, but I bet you statistically the amount that jam is almost unmeasurable compared to the numbers out there.

Dale, don't you see? I was not giving an opinion on in mast furling per se, I was saying that I do not have to have personal experience with one to know that I don't want to have it on my boat at this time in my life. Vicarious experience, and the ability to learn from it is a valuable human resource.

For me, the performance issue is real. We've had a number of folks who have said something like "I'm a cruiser and the performance loss is outweighed by the convenience gain". Most of them have not sailed a similar boat with a good conventional mainsail in order to determine just how severe the performance loss is, yet their opinion is accepted as reasonable. This seems pretty analogous to my thought processes.

At any rate, my post was a comment on the "all the opinions disparaging towards IMF are invalid because they come from folks who don't own one" idea. It was not a comment upon IMF pro or con. And of course I've seen plenty of successful boats with IMF, sailors who use them skillfully and without jams. They are happy, and I'm happy for them, but this does not mean I should have one myself, nor that I should not express that fact here on CF.

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Dale, don't you see? I was not giving an opinion on in mast furling per se, I was saying that I do not have to have personal experience with one to know that I don't want to have it on my boat at this time in my life. Vicarious experience, and the ability to learn from it is a valuable human resource.

For me, the performance issue is real. We've had a number of folks who have said something like "I'm a cruiser and the performance loss is outweighed by the convenience gain". Most of them have not sailed a similar boat with a good conventional mainsail in order to determine just how severe the performance loss is, yet their opinion is accepted as reasonable. This seems pretty analogous to my thought processes.

At any rate, my post was a comment on the "all the opinions disparaging towards IMF are invalid because they come from folks who don't own one" idea. It was not a comment upon IMF pro or con. And of course I've seen plenty of successful boats with IMF, sailors who use them skillfully and without jams. They are happy, and I'm happy for them, but this does not mean I should have one myself, nor that I should not express that fact here on CF.

Jim

Your logic is flawless, Jim.

However, it is also true that actual experience has a remarkable way of dispelling prejudices and changing peoples minds.

The tradeoffs between different systems are very complex indeed, and I'll tell you it was a tough decision for me, to go back to slab reefing. The decision would have been a snap, if I had not spent some years with IMF in all kinds of weather.. Much like Dale Tournier's experience which he well described on here.

As to performance - definitely a drawback of IMF, but not the main factor determining how well your boat sails. Maybe we should race sometime. For pinks

But hey - I'm not selling them. Of course - use what you like, and enjoy it!

[El Pinguino]

I really don't care what people have.... even if it is a cat with in mast furling...

I've crewed on a delivery with in mast ( 58 foot Benny ) and my first boat ( a Vertue ) had around the boom furling which I never ever used..

I'm happy with what I have... I was just responding to the OP as to why I would not have in mast... you don't have to own a Lada to know the reasons you don't want a Lada.


DH... dunno what they think about Aerorig.... haven't actually met up with either of them since 2009....

However the boat in SG is waiting - as we are - for a bit of wx to bugger off so maybe we will meet up in a few weeks...

Over the years there have been a cupla big ones down here... the late Peter Blake's 'Seamaster'(?) and this Brazilian one 'Parati'(?)

So... seems they work..