Poling Out the Headsail with the Boom

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Got to say we loved our pole, loved sailing wing and wing - fast and easy mode. Not just a light air thing - in heavy breeze also - really nicely balanced.

Sometimes our "wing and wing" was two jibs and not the main - like working jib poked to windward and code zero to leeward. Just pulled the boat downwind, both sails easy to set and adjust, no chafe at all.

Probably our favorite passage making rig.

Get a machine shop to make you up some fitting for the pole - they are not complicated, or find a tp52 one.

Our continuing experience echoes this, Evans. We've done many thousands of miles wing and wing, sometimes with full main and genoa, sometimes with a reef or even two in the main and a partially furled genoa (the only time we use the genoa partly furled/reefed). We too find it to be a stable and easily controlled sail plan, providing one has a workable preventer on the boom.

On our previous boat which had a t ypical IOR small main/big headsail rig, we sometimes put a flattening reef in the main and centered it, poled the genoa out to windward and set a second smaller genoa to leeward. The main was a good roll damper and the two genoas had nearly the area of our kite.

I' m not sure why Greg (Stumble) is so worried about safety doing this, for we've never felt it to be particularly dangerous. Perhaps we are naive.

With respect to the admonition that a spinnaker pole can't be used because it isn't 1.414 times J in length...WTF?? Our pole is 1XJ and works adequately. Could be better if a bit longer, but it does work!

And finally, re DH's use of the boom: as mentioned, works better with a high clewed yankee, and in boats with in-line spreaders. With swept back spreaders, like ours and many current design boats, one can't get the boom out far enough to make this a very useful practice for deep angles. Reaching? Yep, that might be really good. We use a sheet lead out on the toe rail for reaching and it helps... might have a look at the angles using the boom for say 110 to 150 degrees apparent.

Jim

[Stumble]

Jim,

My issues with wing and wing are that it only seems to be effective at exactly DDW. Add any waves to the situation, and it's just too easy for a wave to knock the stern around enough to crash jibe the main. Obviously something to be avoided.

Solvable for sure with a preventer, but I have broken two booms with them and just don't trust them that much.

I know a lot of people sail this way with no issues, and that it's been used a lot. But I just never feel comfortable with it. I would actually rather put up a spinnaker even sailing very deep than trust the boom to stay where it should.

I have never been on a boat running two headsails but I can see the draw. But absent that I would rather heat it up 30 degrees, and broad reach back and forth than risk a boom.

[UNCIVILIZED]

FYI, a Safety item first:
You're new preventers may be a bit undersized for your boat/sail size. As at a maximum, 10mm Spectra has an MBL of 5t. And with your main, if you crash gybe/get caught aback, when it's blowing 30kts, the load on the preventer could be 5,000lbs+/- from wind alone. As can be calculated here Harken

Which isn't at all an unrealistic situation to plan for. Especially if you don't want to be dropping the rig, in addition to the unplanned gybe.

This doesn't, at all count the shock load from the gybe, which can be Huge. At times, enough to put mastheads in the water... On the other side/gybe!
Nor does it factor in losses in strength in the rope, due to it's going around any sharp or small radius corners. In addition to strength losses in the line, over time, & to UV, etc.
So a bigger safety factor would probably be wise. Some of which was discussed in another Preventer thread.


Regarding the pole, yeah, if you let us know what ends it has, sorting that part out is simple. As would be snapping off a couple of pictures of them, & sending them to a rigging shop or three. Which, if you do that, please post them here also.

On Pole Jaws; the outboard ends are typically universal. As all they need do is capture & hold the sheet. It's the fittings on the mast, & the pole's butt end, which have to mate up properly.
And there are plenty of images of them available, online, on any; spar maker's, rigger's, or rigging supply shop's, website.

Also, if you do shorten the pole. Keep the cut off piece. As, like Stumble said, it might be re-purposed into a Sprit. For your boat, or another. Length advantages are addressed below.
Speaking of sprits, what happened to your looking at one 3 months ago? Ditto on A-sails, & Code 0's?


For making best speed (VMG) downwind, simply pull up your Polars. That, in addition to Stumble's wisdoms above. They'll tell you what the fastest course for any wind speed & sail combination will be.
And I'd wager that you can set your performance instruments to record your real world Polars, vs. those which you get from the designer. Which will, of course, be more accurate.


For getting best sheeting angle on the jib, downwind, when it's on the same side as the main. A simple way, is just to start out by using the Spinnaker sheet. Which is led to a block at the furthest point aft, & outboard on the boat's toe rail/padeye.
Then use a Twing, to pull the angle of the sheet lead lower & lower, until you get the leech tension correct, with your tell tails flying properly. And if you like, you can also use a Barber Hauler, to alter the sheet's inboard/outboard position.

Once you've determined a few proper settings for the sheet lead, at various wind angles, it's easy enough to mark such positions along the rail. And clip on snatch blocks accordingly when needed. If, that is, you have a slotted toe rail, or several padeyes along your toe rail.

Note: When doing the Twing & Barber Hauler thing, just do it with the safety caveat, that if you need to turn the boat quickly, to go & pick up an MOB. You need to be able to free up said lines, Very quickly. Just as with preventers. Even if it means cutting them.
For they'll all, definitely hinder your boats ability to alter course substantially; if at all.


An Over Length Pole, within reason, is a big, big bonus. As was covered quite in depth, when you were thinking about cutting down your pole, back in March.
Seen here -> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2068810
And to some degree, in the thread on Code 0's that you started - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ts-163122.html

Below is an outake on why Over Length Poles make sense; that's taken from the first linked post, above. Plus, to some degree, it covers using an Over Length Pole as a Sprit. Which is also covered in the other linked post as well:


"I know that this is a Super Long reply. But hopefully it helps you find a pole on the cheap, as well as giving you some options as well. That'll help both your budget, & your sailing; in other ways.
Plus, it's written for the edification of anyone contemplating looking at poles, to whom, they, or using spinnakers are new.

That said, you can get a set of new pole ends, from a number of suppliers, for under $1k pyacht.com for example. And there are literally pages, & pages of links to various used nautical gear chandleries online. Where you should be able to find both; poles, & pole ends, for far, far less.
The same is sometimes true in terms of snagging them from spar makers. or simply from boatyards, who have spare or unused; spars, poles, & hardware just laying around. Ditto on Ebay, etc.

Regarding Carbon Fiber poles. Be VERY careful regarding what you order/purchase. As carbon is Super fragile, especially in spinnaker poles, unless specially ordered... and even then, it still often is.
Specially ordered, meaning that the layup of the material is far, far thicker than is the case with a racing pole, & at times it's reinforced with other (less, again, less fragile) composites as well.

Spinnaker/whisker poles commonly get knocked about a lot. It's almost unavoidable, given their job & how they're rigged. Unless you have a full, well trained, deck crew. Or are an expert solo sailor.

I state as much, because impacts which an aluminum pole will just shrug off, with maybe a nick in the paint, will destroy many carbon poles. And even if you ding, or full on bend, an aluminum pole, they're typically easily fixable. Which, obviously isn't the case with carbon fiber ones.

Also, there are some simple techniques to make handling aluminum poles fairly easy. Even ones far larger than what you're looking for.
As solo, I have no qualms about using a pole on a 50'er, with a pole 25'+ long. And that's on the heavy size, diameter & weight wise, compared to what you're looking at.

Plus, since the aluminum tubing for poles is pretty cheap, it only makes sense to either.
- Pick up enough for another entire pole, when you're buying the first section.
- Or buy an extra 4'-6' (1.5m - 2m) along with enough for your main pole. Plus a slightly undersized, diameter wise, piece too.

That way, if bend your pole, & have to cut out & sleeve a section, in order to repair it, then you have all of the materials on hand to do so.
Albeit, the other option's preferable (buying a 2nd, full section). Particularly, an Over Length, “Penalty Pole” sized one (see below). Then you can swap out the ends & hardware between the two tubes at will.

One other KEY tip: Unless you're racing, & your pole is thus measured under the rating rules. You should seriously consider buying/making your pole a bit over length (possibly even if you're racing too). AKA a "Penalty Pole".
Especially if you won't be doing any dip pole gybes. Or your pole's mast track goes up high enough so that you can swing an over length pole in between the spar & the headstay easily.

Because a pole which is a few feet longer than standard, can get the spinnaker out into clearer air. So that it's not blanketed by the main so much. And this makes you a lot less likely to have problems controlling the boat with a kite up.
As with such a pole, it moves your sailplan's center of effort forward, when sailing downwind. By projecting the leading edge (luff) of the kite out further (into clear air).

Some of the (control) issues which it prevents are/can be:
- Rounding Up
- Being Roll Prone/Doing "Death Rolls". Meaning where the boat rolls from one gunwale to another, or sometimes further.
- Having rudder control/responsiveness issues. Or even having the rudder come fully clear of the water on some waves. And or, when the boat rolls heavily.

So it's worth checking out, to see if it makes sense for you. Perhaps via attaching a tape measure to your mast mounted hardware, & sliding the car all of the way up. And then measuring the distance to your headstay at waist level.
That'll tell you the max sized pole which will fit, for dip pole gybes. Which are the conventional sort.

Though with an Over Length Pole, you can always;
~ Pull the snuffer down over the kite, disconnect it from the pole. Then unhook the pole's butt end, & move the pole's tip through the foretriangle that way. Reconnecting it's butt, & re-setting the kite after that’s done.
~ Or drop the kite, move the pole over, & re-hoist it on the other gybe.
~ And with a good crew: Stabilize the kite & boat DDW, while you disconnect the pole’s Butt end, & move the pole across that way. Re-connecting it to the kite on the new gybe.

One other reason for looking into an Over Length Pole, is; if you're going to fly Asymmetrical Spinnakers (A-Sails). As on some boats, what's done then, is to take the Butt end of the pole down almost to the Deck. And lock it into position up forward with the Foreguy, & Afterguy (sometimes with a 3rd line too.
Then the extra length, which protrudes past the headstay/pulpit, is used as a "sprit" for flying some types of A-Sails.

Much as you'll commonly see them flown from either;
- Fixed (short) sprits built into the bows of boats.
- Longer, retractable sprits on the bows of boats. Such as J-Boats, & Sport Boats, & racing Multihulls.
- Deck Mounted, detachable sprits.
- Articulating sprits built onto the bows (or crossbeams) of some boats.

However, if the pole with it's Butt end mounted with it's Butt end on the mast, protrudes out in front of the boat, then you can vary it's angle when flying an A-Sail, just as you do with a Conventional (Symmetrical Spinnaker).
Thus, you can get the sail's luff out into clearer air, where it's not blanketed by the Main.
And also so that you can fly an A-Sail at deeper angles. Ones giving an A-Sail a much greater range of wind angles that it can be flown through, then from a fixed sprit.

Plus, on some boats, you can simply run the Butt of the pole down to the deck, at the mast, & strap it into a set of chocks up at the bow. And use it as a fixed sprit for A-Sails that way".

[RaymondR]

I started out with a whisker pole with the standard beaky things on the end but found that as a single hander it was too difficult to use and a demon to stow.


I then switched to 2 fairly long, permanently mounted whiskery poles with outhauls running down the centre of the poles and back to the cockpit. The outhauls have spliced eyes in their outboard ends which I slip over bulky knots on the tack of the sails. The advantage of these is they are very readily connected and disconnected.


Originally the poles were long enough to hold the sails out to fairly well full extent but they extended almost up to the anchor winch and looked a bit dorky so I cut them off so that they stow back at the forward lower shrouds. The intention was to make them telescoping but I have found that even in their shortened condition they do a reasonable job of holding the sails out.


In very light weather I use twin headsails - a 140% genoa and a smallish asymmetric spinnaker. Occasionally, usually when I am feeling lazy and already have the main up, I will sail wing and wing but if there is any sort of sea running it can be pretty hairy.


The outhauls through the poles allow me to jibe the genoa from the cockpit which my creaky old body finds a blessing when running down wind with just the genoa.


One of these days I'll get around to building the telescoping poles mainly to see how well they work.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

FYI, a Safety item first:
You're new preventers may be a bit undersized for your boat/sail size. As at a maximum, 10mm Spectra has an MBL of 5t. And with your main, if you crash gybe/get caught aback, when it's blowing 30kts, the load on the preventer could be 5,000lbs+/- from wind alone. As can be calculated here Harken

Which isn't at all an unrealistic situation to plan for. Especially if you don't want to be dropping the rig, in addition to the unplanned gybe.

This doesn't, at all count the shock load from the gybe, which can be Huge. At times, enough to put mastheads in the water... On the other side/gybe!
Nor does it factor in losses in strength in the rope, due to it's going around any sharp or small radius corners. In addition to strength losses in the line, over time, & to UV, etc.
So a bigger safety factor would probably be wise. Some of which was discussed in another Preventer thread.


Regarding the pole, yeah, if you let us know what ends it has, sorting that part out is simple. As would be snapping off a couple of pictures of them, & sending them to a rigging shop or three. Which, if you do that, please post them here also.

On Pole Jaws; the outboard ends are typically universal. As all they need do is capture & hold the sheet. It's the fittings on the mast, & the pole's butt end, which have to mate up properly.
And there are plenty of images of them available, online, on any; spar maker's, rigger's, or rigging supply shop's, website.

Also, if you do shorten the pole. Keep the cut off piece. As, like Stumble said, it might be re-purposed into a Sprit. For your boat, or another. Length advantages are addressed below.
Speaking of sprits, what happened to your looking at one 3 months ago? Ditto on A-sails, & Code 0's?


For making best speed (VMG) downwind, simply pull up your Polars. That, in addition to Stumble's wisdoms above. They'll tell you what the fastest course for any wind speed & sail combination will be.
And I'd wager that you can set your performance instruments to record your real world Polars, vs. those which you get from the designer. Which will, of course, be more accurate.


For getting best sheeting angle on the jib, downwind, when it's on the same side as the main. A simple way, is just to start out by using the Spinnaker sheet. Which is led to a block at the furthest point aft, & outboard on the boat's toe rail/padeye.
Then use a Twing, to pull the angle of the sheet lead lower & lower, until you get the leech tension correct, with your tell tails flying properly. And if you like, you can also use a Barber Hauler, to alter the sheet's inboard/outboard position.

Once you've determined a few proper settings for the sheet lead, at various wind angles, it's easy enough to mark such positions along the rail. And clip on snatch blocks accordingly when needed. If, that is, you have a slotted toe rail, or several padeyes along your toe rail.

Note: When doing the Twing & Barber Hauler thing, just do it with the safety caveat, that if you need to turn the boat quickly, to go & pick up an MOB. You need to be able to free up said lines, Very quickly. Just as with preventers. Even if it means cutting them.
For they'll all, definitely hinder your boats ability to alter course substantially; if at all.


An Over Length Pole, within reason, is a big, big bonus. As was covered quite in depth, when you were thinking about cutting down your pole, back in March.
Seen here -> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2068810
And to some degree, in the thread on Code 0's that you started - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ts-163122.html

Below is an outake on why Over Length Poles make sense; that's taken from the first linked post, above. Plus, to some degree, it covers using an Over Length Pole as a Sprit. Which is also covered in the other linked post as well:


"I know that this is a Super Long reply. But hopefully it helps you find a pole on the cheap, as well as giving you some options as well. That'll help both your budget, & your sailing; in other ways.
Plus, it's written for the edification of anyone contemplating looking at poles, to whom, they, or using spinnakers are new.

That said, you can get a set of new pole ends, from a number of suppliers, for under $1k pyacht.com for example. And there are literally pages, & pages of links to various used nautical gear chandleries online. Where you should be able to find both; poles, & pole ends, for far, far less.
The same is sometimes true in terms of snagging them from spar makers. or simply from boatyards, who have spare or unused; spars, poles, & hardware just laying around. Ditto on Ebay, etc.

Regarding Carbon Fiber poles. Be VERY careful regarding what you order/purchase. As carbon is Super fragile, especially in spinnaker poles, unless specially ordered... and even then, it still often is.
Specially ordered, meaning that the layup of the material is far, far thicker than is the case with a racing pole, & at times it's reinforced with other (less, again, less fragile) composites as well.

Spinnaker/whisker poles commonly get knocked about a lot. It's almost unavoidable, given their job & how they're rigged. Unless you have a full, well trained, deck crew. Or are an expert solo sailor.

I state as much, because impacts which an aluminum pole will just shrug off, with maybe a nick in the paint, will destroy many carbon poles. And even if you ding, or full on bend, an aluminum pole, they're typically easily fixable. Which, obviously isn't the case with carbon fiber ones.

Also, there are some simple techniques to make handling aluminum poles fairly easy. Even ones far larger than what you're looking for.
As solo, I have no qualms about using a pole on a 50'er, with a pole 25'+ long. And that's on the heavy size, diameter & weight wise, compared to what you're looking at.

Plus, since the aluminum tubing for poles is pretty cheap, it only makes sense to either.
- Pick up enough for another entire pole, when you're buying the first section.
- Or buy an extra 4'-6' (1.5m - 2m) along with enough for your main pole. Plus a slightly undersized, diameter wise, piece too.

That way, if bend your pole, & have to cut out & sleeve a section, in order to repair it, then you have all of the materials on hand to do so.
Albeit, the other option's preferable (buying a 2nd, full section). Particularly, an Over Length, “Penalty Pole” sized one (see below). Then you can swap out the ends & hardware between the two tubes at will.

One other KEY tip: Unless you're racing, & your pole is thus measured under the rating rules. You should seriously consider buying/making your pole a bit over length (possibly even if you're racing too). AKA a "Penalty Pole".
Especially if you won't be doing any dip pole gybes. Or your pole's mast track goes up high enough so that you can swing an over length pole in between the spar & the headstay easily.

Because a pole which is a few feet longer than standard, can get the spinnaker out into clearer air. So that it's not blanketed by the main so much. And this makes you a lot less likely to have problems controlling the boat with a kite up.
As with such a pole, it moves your sailplan's center of effort forward, when sailing downwind. By projecting the leading edge (luff) of the kite out further (into clear air).

Some of the (control) issues which it prevents are/can be:
- Rounding Up
- Being Roll Prone/Doing "Death Rolls". Meaning where the boat rolls from one gunwale to another, or sometimes further.
- Having rudder control/responsiveness issues. Or even having the rudder come fully clear of the water on some waves. And or, when the boat rolls heavily.

So it's worth checking out, to see if it makes sense for you. Perhaps via attaching a tape measure to your mast mounted hardware, & sliding the car all of the way up. And then measuring the distance to your headstay at waist level.
That'll tell you the max sized pole which will fit, for dip pole gybes. Which are the conventional sort.

Though with an Over Length Pole, you can always;
~ Pull the snuffer down over the kite, disconnect it from the pole. Then unhook the pole's butt end, & move the pole's tip through the foretriangle that way. Reconnecting it's butt, & re-setting the kite after that’s done.
~ Or drop the kite, move the pole over, & re-hoist it on the other gybe.
~ And with a good crew: Stabilize the kite & boat DDW, while you disconnect the pole’s Butt end, & move the pole across that way. Re-connecting it to the kite on the new gybe.

One other reason for looking into an Over Length Pole, is; if you're going to fly Asymmetrical Spinnakers (A-Sails). As on some boats, what's done then, is to take the Butt end of the pole down almost to the Deck. And lock it into position up forward with the Foreguy, & Afterguy (sometimes with a 3rd line too.
Then the extra length, which protrudes past the headstay/pulpit, is used as a "sprit" for flying some types of A-Sails.

Much as you'll commonly see them flown from either;
- Fixed (short) sprits built into the bows of boats.
- Longer, retractable sprits on the bows of boats. Such as J-Boats, & Sport Boats, & racing Multihulls.
- Deck Mounted, detachable sprits.
- Articulating sprits built onto the bows (or crossbeams) of some boats.

However, if the pole with it's Butt end mounted with it's Butt end on the mast, protrudes out in front of the boat, then you can vary it's angle when flying an A-Sail, just as you do with a Conventional (Symmetrical Spinnaker).
Thus, you can get the sail's luff out into clearer air, where it's not blanketed by the Main.
And also so that you can fly an A-Sail at deeper angles. Ones giving an A-Sail a much greater range of wind angles that it can be flown through, then from a fixed sprit.

Plus, on some boats, you can simply run the Butt of the pole down to the deck, at the mast, & strap it into a set of chocks up at the bow. And use it as a fixed sprit for A-Sails that way".

Really good and really comprehensive information; thank you. I've printed it out for future reference. Cheers.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Jim,

My issues with wing and wing are that it only seems to be effective at exactly DDW. Add any waves to the situation, and it's just too easy for a wave to knock the stern around enough to crash jibe the main. Obviously something to be avoided.

Solvable for sure with a preventer, but I have broken two booms with them and just don't trust them that much.

I know a lot of people sail this way with no issues, and that it's been used a lot. But I just never feel comfortable with it. I would actually rather put up a spinnaker even sailing very deep than trust the boom to stay where it should.

I have never been on a boat running two headsails but I can see the draw. But absent that I would rather heat it up 30 degrees, and broad reach back and forth than risk a boom.

I sail wing on wing quite a bit. There are two main problems with it, both of which would be solved with a pole: (a) the unpoled headsail will not tolerate even one degree sailing by the lee; (b) the unpoled headsail fills and collapses in light conditions if there is much rolling.

The preventered out main work fabulously and draws even 15 or 20 degrees by the lee. If the poled-out headsail will be similarly stable, then I think this is an excellent configuration, even if, obviously, it can only be used quite close to DDW.


I do not use my main sail and do not leave the boom out far when sailing downwind in any kind of rough conditions. Getting the boom in the water is a big no-no according to my way of sailing. I put the mainsail away and center the boom, and continue using only the headsail.

I don't believe any preventer of any size would save the situation if the boom dips. On the contrary, as Stumble mentioned -- a really strong preventer would just break the boom. So I just don't take significant risks of dipping the boom.

I suppose it would be the same with my very long pole, which would be easier to dip than my boom. I guess the consequences of dipping the pole would not be as horrific.


What that means for this new technique I think is that I will simply bring the boom further inboard, if it gets rough. I noticed a big benefit from the barber hauler through the boom even at fairly shallow angles.


As to preventer strength -- I don't think the preventer should be strong enough to break the boom. Beyond a certain force on the boom, there WILL be mayhem and destruction, and I'd rather the preventer break, than the boom. It could be that I am wrong about this, but this is my current thinking, and Stumble's stories seem to reinforce it. Of course under some circumstances if the preventer breaks, the boom will ALSO break as it slams around. But under others -- like the boom dipping in the water -- probably not.


This could be a big challenge in high performance oriented boats where you may be often sailing at the edge of a broach, and this is just one more reason why cruising boats, in my opinion, should not be that extreme in their design. Short handed cruising in high latitudes in boats with torpedo keels and stiletto rudders -- well, I like to sail fast, but not at that expense. So in this respect my boat has the right compromises for my taste, and one of them is an extremely large semi-balanced rudder (taller than me and seemingly as big as a garage door). This is not the most efficient rudder and I give up a bit of speed because of its huge size and modest aspect ratio, but the benefit of such a rudder is that you can't stall it, and it has enough power seemingly to move the earth. I've only ever broached once (by being knocked down by a huge breaking wave in the middle of the North Sea during a severe gale), and I've never been anywhere close to ever having a crash gybe on this boat. Waves don't "knock the stern around" on my boat unless they are large enough to roll the boat. We just don't do crash gybes, and I am intensely careful to avoid ever being at significant risk of one. No doubt at the expense of some speed, but far offshore and in some of the places I sail, breaking the gear is just not an option. My next boat will have a very large Dashew-esque spade rudder, but the design brief will say that stall-proofing it is more important than ultimate speed.

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Jim,

My issues with wing and wing are that it only seems to be effective at exactly DDW.

Not our experience.

We were happy/stable sailing as much as 15 degrees by the Lee (but would jybe the sails if we thought that would continue more than a couple hours) and 50 degrees the other way . . . So a 65 degree range.

In light air, with some left over swell/ocean waves, the apparent wind is too low for wing and wing and the sails bang. It is better to reach off in those conditions at perhaps a 130-140 twa. The cross over point for us was often somewhere in the 10-12kt true range . . . But it depended on swell size.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Not our experience.

We were happy/stable sailing as much as 15 degrees by the Lee (but would jybe the sails if we thought that would continue more than a couple hours) and 50 degrees the other way . . . So a 65 degree range.

In light air, with some left over swell/ocean waves, the apparent wind is too low for wing and wing and the sails bang. It is better to reach off in those conditions at perhaps a 130-140 twa. The cross over point for us was often somewhere in the 10-12kt true range . . . But it depended on swell size.

Wow, that's better than I'd hoped for.

I now feel much better about having acquired that pole. Cool!


Another thing about sailing wing on wing -- it's not just a question of speed. When sailing coastwise you may not always have searoom or choice of course, to allow you to choose to reach off and gybe. You may need to follow a channel or follow a particular course, which may require sailing DDW even if it's not the fastest VMG to waypoint.

This actually seems to happen a lot to us -- possibly because the wind bends around land masses.

Edit: Evans, you probably have straight spreaders, right? I don't believe I could make the mainsail on my boat work that far by the lee -- we have aft-swept spreaders and I can't get the boom completely perpendicular to the boat.

[nigel1]

I've managed about 10 degrees by by the lee, and thats with swept back spreaders.
Dockhead has a good point about having to sail DDW due to land masses.
Spent a fair bit of time sailing on the West Coast of Scotland last year, and on the Lochs, it is usually a case of the wind being either directly ahead, or directly astern.

[estarzinger]

^^ hawk was a bit of a hybrid on spreader angle . . . Not inline but also not severely swept back. I would have to get the sail plan out to confirm but I think it is a 10 degree angle.

At max "by the Lee" the main is blanketing the jib, so you are loosing some speed and "should" jybe the rig. It is just a calculation of how long it will continue at that angle (because you also loose some speed in the jybe maneuver at least the way we did it) & how lazy you are feeling.

[Stumble]

Don't get me wrong, sometimes you have to sail DDW, I just never choose to so make gear selections around that. Trying to work down a channel, you do what you have too, but rarely have I needed to do that while contending with big waves. If I did I would probably have the motor on anyway.

And Dockhead one of my favorite things to do is job reach with a pole attached, it's gobs faster than leaving the pole off and very easy to control the lead angle. I don't think you made a mistake in buying it you just need to get it fitted and put to use.

[01kiwijohn]

Yeah, I also looked at all the complicated, and expensive, twin pole downwind rigs that some use; I used a snatch block on the boom end and poled our a 150% with that, running for several days on my way back across the pacific. works great, just not as convenient to set as a dedicated rig would have been....but, I've got the time....

[Boston Blackie]

We also love our carbon spin pole as a whisker pole on the J42 off the wind. I extended the pole track up the mast for easy setting and dousing. Our new 115% Yankee loves to broad reach on the pole. As the wind comes forward we can tune the draft of the poled out jib by reefing it down to about 100%.

[s/v Beth]

It's not often I can come to the forums and learn some new technique that I should try. Thanks Dockhead. Now my wing on wing is not the classical setup.. I use a larger staysil out on one side and the yankee jib polled out on the other. I will put a snatch block on my boom, lash down the preventer and run the jibsheet through the block at the end of the boom. It should be easier than putting the whisker pole up on the mast!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Beth

It's not often I can come to the forums and learn some new technique that I should try. Thanks Dockhead. Now my wing on wing is not the classical setup.. I use a larger staysil out on one side and the yankee jib polled out on the other. I will put a snatch block on my boom, lash down the preventer and run the jibsheet through the block at the end of the boom. It should be easier than putting the whisker pole up on the mast!

I've also poled out my staysail -- with a boat hook

The staysail is small, but maybe actually really worth working up a more serious pole. That's a beautiful rig somewhat like a twizzle, even if not all that much sail area is added.