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Old 19-03-2016, 06:42   #1
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Code 0's and Sprits

I got the following PM from Uncivilized, which I am posting with his permission since I think the discussion could be interesting for more than just me.


Hi Dockhead,

I had some thoughts & queries that I figured I'd pass on to you. Given that I woke up FAR too early, & my brain was fully in gear at the time.

Firstly, even with a furler for them, which is how 95%+ of them are flown. You don't leave them up anyway. As the wind has a habit of slightly unfurling them, which contributes to their rapid demise.
And yes, it also makes sense to take them down for reasons of windage. Albeit, I can't see how you're worried about such, between 2 headsails, permanently on furlers. As well as an oversized mast tube, for that in mast furling setup.

Regarding sprits, poles, Code 0's, & Asymmetricals. I'd suggest that you do a bit of homework. As if my post was news to you, you're not really informed enough, to be writing checks for a sprit for your boat, or buying another high dollar, pretty complex sail.
I know, I know, you said that you want one "soon", but... you’ve much to learn between now & then.
As kites on 420’s, from many decades in your past, bear little resemblance to big boat gear & sails; let alone Code 0’s.

As to sprits, there are literally thousands of boats with fixed, built in sprits out there. Ditto on boats with deck mounted sprits, which are detachable. In addition to the retractable sort, as commonly seen on J-boats/sport boats.
There are other, A-frame type sprits, which fold up out of the way, when not in use. And of course, some spinnaker poles of the proper type, & length, can be used as sprits, in conjunction with the proper hardware.
It's easy to find plenty of images of such, online. Well, actually, it's hard not to, if you look at any pics of modern boats; cruisers or racers.

Here's a deck mounted sprit, on Eric Goetz's personal boat. As in Eric Goetz of GMT, who's company builds all kinds of custom boats, spars & projects; including many for the America's Cup, etc.
Ergo, he could have any setup he liked, & this is what he chose (over a retractable sprit, like on the J-boat in the picture). Katie G | Rodger Martin Design

If you do some looking around on these websites, you'll see both some fixed, & also some folding A-Frame type sprits Fora Marine - RM Yachts
Marc Lombard, architecte naval basé à La Rochelle

And Selden, Forespar, plus a bunch of others, make bowsprit kits, for A-sails. So that non J-boats/Sport Boats, can have the perks of using sprit mounted sails too. Nor are sprits overly tough to DIY on small to mid-vessels.
Albeit, for a boat your size, you're looking at a custom setup. But I know a gent who has one that's 8” solid Carbon Fiber… That’s demountable. For which, I’m sure, the engineering (of the sprit, & the reinforcements added to the boat in order to handle the loads from it) were “fun”.
So it's both doable, nor is it rocket science. Albeit, it's far from cheap.

A question though, that I just have to ask: Given that you fuss over the price of anti-fouling, or even a set of jib sheets. How then can you contemplate the $20-$30K+ (minimum) that it's going to take to setup your boat to handle a Code 0?
And I know that you seem to love fiddling with your boat: But seriously, a Project Manager, or Pro Skipper, etc. would save you both; a lot of headaches, time, & money, along the way. On Everything.

I ask, as below are some of the big outlays/items on the table for such a sail:
There are the probable required spar & halyard mod’s which will be need... Because odds are you'll have to tune/build such equipment to handle the immense loads generated by this class of sail.

Code 0's are generally hoisted on 2:1 halyards. That, & often even more purchase is used, either; on the halyard, at the deck/sprit (tack), or both. So, some major league Vectran $ is mandatory. Ditto on the blocks & sheaves to handle such… Top & Bottom. As well as what it’s attached to. AKA, your sprit.
And given that they’re rigged like this, it adds up to a lot of load (and $) on your; spar, rigging (fixed & adjustable), sails, sprit, hull, & the sail’s running gear.

Of course, then, there's a furler ($6K - $12K), & the anti-torsion cable ($2k-4K minimum).
The sail will be, say $12K+ (as an educated guess) for a boat your size. And easily double that, or more, depending on what you choose.


Also, even for a “light weight” sail, given their size, they require a lot of brute force & coordination to handle, up on the foredeck. As on a boat the size of yours, they’re by no means light.
So coupled with your preference for staying in the cockpit, how then does that work?

Thus, my befuddlement as to how all of this information is news to you. Meaning the tech stuff about sprits, how Code 0's are flown (& doused, plus stored). What wind angles they're good for, how to tune various kite types, so as to get more sailing/a greater range of useable wind angles out of them . So as to maximize the return for your $?

As to me, learning such, is all part of the process which one goes though, when contemplating buying such a sail.
Especially as they're FAR more complex than a basic jib, or kite.

I’m not saying that I’m a Rhodes Scholar when it comes to them. Or on what specific setup & gear, is the best for your boat. But I’m fairly well versed in the basics about them, & what it takes to setup & get the proper performance out of them. Especially given their high total cost, when all that’s needed to use them is added up.

Perhaps you should start a thread on them. Possibly including the relevant bits of this message in it.. And I might be able to scare up some links to other insightful ino on them, also.

Uncivilized

PS: To give you an idea of the luff loads on a Code 0. On a 40'er, they run 3T-5T+ easily
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Old 19-03-2016, 07:02   #2
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

There is a lot I still need to learn about these, but I have already done a fair amount of research so already know more than zero.

For my boat, the sprit, sail, and furler would cost about 13,000 pounds. I got quotes last year already from my sailmaker for a carbon laminate sail, and the riggers here worked out how to put the sprit on. I might save some money with a used sail but I haven't run across one yet.

I already have 6 racing dyneema halyards, very strong and stretch-free 12mm ones, so I'm good there; just need to rig to get purchase needed.

As to how you sail with these things -- I've never done it, but have gotten advice from a number of experienced people. It is not realistic for me to keep a variety of light weather and downwind sails on board this boat (which lacks a proper sail locker), so I wanted something versatile. One of the many useful pieces of advice I got from various people came from Evans Starzinger, who said that even with a big inventory of downwind and light wind sails, the Code 0 is his go-to sail and the rest hardly get used. That made a big impression on me. I had been thinking about a cruising chute, but quickly abandoned that idea.


As to my budgets and finances -- they are what they are, and no one should be puzzled, in fact, you shouldn't look into other people's pockets, as my mom always taught me. I am in a business where I might make several million in one year, and then nothing for several years or even years on end, so cash available to spend on the boat varies greatly from year to year. I spent about $75,000 on my spring refit last year including new sails, but this year is leaner, in fact this year is really lean, so the budget is tighter and nothing in it for yet more new sails, and yes, I worry about the cost of antifoul and new ropes just like any other cruiser does. So a light wind sail will be next year's spring project -- maybe.


As to pro crew -- I used to scoff at one friend of mine who kept a professional skipper on his boat (a very large Swan) -- I teased him that it's like marrying a beautiful woman then hiring a pro to sleep with her . But I have now come around to desiring not a pro skipper, but a pro engineer/crewman, which would free me from a lot of the workload which makes it hard for me to relax on a cruise. Not on this boat and not in the budgets I have these days, but some day. Meanwhile, I prefer doing things myself even when I can afford to hire someone to do it, because I want the knowledge and ability. There are no engineers or riggers in the middle of the ocean.

I'm sure it would be easier to leave the rigging questions to a pro, but I don't mind the effort. And I'm getting good results. For example, I agonized a lot last year how to do the sheet leads for my new blade jib, over a couple of months, but with the help of some people on here finally figured out how to rig the twing system which I have now, which is absolutely superb, vastly better than normal tracks, and I saved a ton of money. And the process itself was really useful for me to better understand practical aspects of rigging and deck hardware.



So for the time being the diesel main engine will have to continue to be my go-to light wind sail, as it is for many cruisers. But it's not too early to be studying the question and planning. Plus it's just pleasant to think about rigging, sails, and anything at all on deck.
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Old 19-03-2016, 07:48   #3
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

Interestin thread. Had lots of questions about Code 0's and you are hitting them. Didn't know it was temp setup.
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Old 19-03-2016, 09:56   #4
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

I've done some studying on this class of sails, as well as A-Sails in general, & here are some more, Very relevant links. Some of which also contain links to other useful posts, also.
Plus, there's a good bit of info on the equipment needed in order to handle them, as well as what kinds of modifications that you'll likely need to make to your boat as well... for Code 0's, & for other kinds of kites (spinnakers) as well.

This was the initial comment/post that I made to Dockhead which prompted me to PM him with more info AND questions on Code 0's. And what his depth of knowledge was on them.
Effect of Prop Antifouling on Prop Anode Wear?

Here's a little bit of wisdom on Poles & Sprits. Especially as relates to Code 0's. As well as on how to expand what wind angles your A-Sail/Code 0 may be useful over.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2068810
And if you're smarter on this stuff than me, feel free to step up & correct any grievous errors.

One thing which isn't always necessarily obvious about using a spin(naker) pole for a Code 0, even on something like a J-boat. Is that the loads exerted by the sail are tremendous. Particularly vertically. As in 3T - 5T on some 40'ers, depending on their setups.

So that the sprit, or pole, is fully doing the job that your hull reaching out to where the sail is tacked to the sprit or pole would be. Thus with sails like Code 0's, more often than not, a "conventional" sport boat pole. Like on a J-boat needs some "help", AKA extra support, for these loads. At least in any sort of breeze, & or, waves.

Though, as always, there are caveats. You can mitigate some of the vertical pull through the use of a bobstay for the pole. And the same is true in the horizontal plane, meaning, via using side stays on the pole, for extra support.
But in order to best use them, you may have to add "Bull Horns". Which are transversely mounted poles a few feet back from the bow, extending out sideways. Which act much like a reaching strut does, when it's attached to the mast, while carrying a conventional kite forward of 100 deg. AWA
However, these ones are usually permanent fixtures, & again, are attached a few feet aft of the bow. Plus, they ain't exactly common, but for a few One Design fleets that run fully articulating poles (which is a whole 'nother story).

Here's a good bit more info on Code 0's & Screechers. The latter being a close cousin to the other, & more prevalent on multihulls. And is worth a read. Nylone,or laminate for screecher?

And here's a (fairly) comprehensive Q&A on Code 0 furlers. Which a very kind, self-admittedly OCD gent who races Class 40's professionally, was kind enough to reply to/fill in the blanks on.
Plus, as a perk, it's in a thread on Code 0 Furlers; over on Sailing Anarchy Forums
Furler for Code 0? - Gear Anarchy - Sailing Anarchy Forums

Along similar lines, there's plenty of information on this site on; A-Sails, Top Down Furlers, & Spinnaker Snuffers (Socks). Which I would STRONGLY encourage anyone to research, prior to buying any sort of modern kite, or hardware/furling gear for it.
That, as well as reading this post, & digging around in the thread which contains it.
Assymeterical geneker or code zero?

As, for example, it explains that if you're considering a Top Down Furler, then that you'll also need to purchase an Anti-Torsion Cable for each kite that you plan to use with the furler. And that these cables cost pretty much what a snuffer (sock) for the same sized kite does.
So... it makes you ask the question as to whether or not spending several thousand $ more on a furler (which needs much attention in order to work well) is really worth it.

As, it's often difficult to get a satisfactory, to perfect furl, when using a top down furler. Unless you pay Very close attention to all aspects of things when you're doing it. And have a few mod's made to the sail, also.

It's not that they don't work, far from it, but they definitely have limitations.
For instance, you can't fly you kite (spinnaker) on one, & be able to alter the luff tension of the sail. Which in varying wind strengths, & changing wind angles, is a big issue affecting the efficiency of the sail.

Then, when it comes down to choosing time for; fabric weights, & sail size, here are some pointers stock sails - asymmetrical

Also, and this is Key, at some point, regardless of what kind of furler or snuffer you have, things have a decent probability of getting stuck, or failing. So that you'll be forced to either; do a standard, old fashioned takedown, cut the sail free, or both. As failing to do so would most likely fall into the dangerous category, & or, could cause you to lose your rig as well.
It's rare, but...

And while most of the sail handling systems out there are pretty reliable, this is just reality. Much as is the case, that at some point, you may have to cut your ground tackle, & leave it, in order to save your boat (& or your lives).
Distasteful, yes, but also reality.

That, & as I told Dockhead, Code 0's aren't the kind of thing which you leap into buying, before doing a lot of research on them. As they're; pretty specialized types of sails, & are far from cheap (especially with all of the added hardware & mod's to the boat & rigging, needed to fly them). And, yeah, they fairly complex too, as compared to regular kites & jibs.

But... if you need some extra horsepower when it's light, especially in the 045 - 090+ AWA range, then they may be worth looking at (albeit, so are a few other options).
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Old 19-03-2016, 10:06   #5
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

A wealth of valuable information; thanks very much. I will study it carefully and revert with questions.

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Old 20-03-2016, 11:09   #6
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

Snuffers are an interesting subject by themselves, let alone all the rest of this thread. Thanks for all the knowledge and links
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Old 20-03-2016, 12:00   #7
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

Dockhead, since you like cruising the Baltic, maybe you should consider a bowsprit like the locals fit
Performance



You can fit a retractable ladder for when you tie up bow first to a rock or whatever around the various archipelagos.

I don't have a code 0, but instead I have a "code 1" which is similar to use but handles much lighter loads. I rig the sheets up so that one goes outside of the roller and this means that when the sail is rolled in I can tighten both sheets and it should not unroll. I don't leave the sail up, but if the weather changes and I don't have time to put the sail away, it seems to be pretty secure on the roller.

Last season I added an North G2 to my inventory and it is on a roller also, but both sails share the same Selden CX25 roller. So when I'm cruising, I leave the CX25 permanently mounted and attach whichever sail suits the conditions when needed. A few times I switch from my C1 to/from G2 and the setup I have makes it not too much of a drag even as I'm solo.
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Old 20-03-2016, 12:20   #8
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
That, & as I told Dockhead, Code 0's aren't the kind of thing which you leap into buying, before doing a lot of research on them. As they're; pretty specialized types of sails, & are far from cheap (especially with all of the added hardware & mod's to the boat & rigging, needed to fly them). And, yeah, they fairly complex too, as compared to regular kites & jibs.

But... if you need some extra horsepower when it's light, especially in the 045 - 090+ AWA range, then they may be worth looking at (albeit, so are a few other options).
My Code 1 does allow me to pinch up to 40 AWA and I get 2-3 knots speed when the wind is 5-8 knots apparent. As the wind picks up I do have to bare away a bit.

Whilst these sails are designed for up to 90 AWA, they work perfectly fine like a big lightweight genoa downwind. I've even flown mine DDW goose winged



At the time I purchased my C1 I only wanted to fit the Selden removable bowsprit, so a C0 was not an option. If I had to do it again, now that I have a fixed bowsprit that can support a C0, I'd probably go down the C0 route so that I can continue pointing high for a wider wind range.
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Old 20-03-2016, 17:21   #9
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

It hasn't come up in this thread yet, but one has to be careful to specify what we're talking about.

Most lofts have sails that they call code zeros. Mostly, these are for racing and designed for a very narrow wind angle and force.

On the other hand, a "Cruising Code Zero" (CCZ) is being popularized by the likes of Island Planet Sails and Jamie of Sailing Totem (here's an article he wrote about it) as a very easy to use light and downwind sail that won't flop around so much due to the tight luff and is therefore very useful offshore. Jamie is a sailmaker and a member of this board. He does consults, if you're interested in reaching out to him.

I honestly don't know the difference between the sails, other than I'd expect a CCZ to have a fuller cut and be made of heavier material.
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Old 20-03-2016, 17:56   #10
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
It hasn't come up in this thread yet, but one has to be careful to specify what we're talking about.

Most lofts have sails that they call code zeros. Mostly, these are for racing and designed for a very narrow wind angle and force.

On the other hand, a "Cruising Code Zero" (CCZ) is being popularized by the likes of Island Planet Sails and Jamie of Sailing Totem (here's an article he wrote about it) as a very easy to use light and downwind sail that won't flop around so much due to the tight luff and is therefore very useful offshore. Jamie is a sailmaker and a member of this board. He does consults, if you're interested in reaching out to him.

I honestly don't know the difference between the sails, other than I'd expect a CCZ to have a fuller cut and be made of heavier material.
This was one of the posts of Evans Starzinger which has lead my thinking on this choice of sail:

"^^

Well . . . .

"#1 when you sail thru a lull, the apparent wind comes forward. A zero can be trimmed to that, while deeper sails can not.

"#2 the tensionned luff on a zero is much more stable than the "shoulders" on deeper sails, so it requires less attention.

"#3 the straight luff makes for more trouble free furling, making the sail much easier to handle thru squalls

"All three of those make the sail easier to handle than deeper sails.

"#4 sure deeper cut sails are marginally faster than a zero cut when sailing deep, but it is really marginal in cruising terms and the above ease of handling is IMHO more important for a cruiser. With a zero you can pole either the tack or the clew if you want to go deep, and if you put a jib out in the other side you get almost the same projected area as a medium a-chute.

"So, the speed loss is practically speaking really small.

"#5 you do not need huge halyard tension on a zero, unless/except when sailing quite close (say closer than 50 degrees), and even this "huge" halyard tension is simply accomplished with a 2:1 halyard.

"So there are no practical problems using a zero.

"Net net we carry two a-chutes and a zero, and have really mostly given up setting the a-chutes because the zero is so easy to set and handle and its speed penalty is so small (in cruising terms).

"Note: our zero is made from DP's VZ cloth, and cut like a racing zero except for the mid-girth measurement. That's what a mean by a "cruising zero". I do not mean some sort of gennaker. I have had /used zeros like this from Doyle, quantum and north. (we were, according to North, the first cruising boat in the world to use a furling zero; so I have a few years and miles refining/using this concept)

"A racing sailor would look at all this differently because they have different priorities and an extra tenth of a knot is the essential priority."


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Old 20-03-2016, 19:28   #11
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

The Code 0's which I've been talking about all along, are exactly that. True Code 0's, designed to get you as close to the wind as possible, & which for upwind work, have very tight luff (ropes, er, anti-torsion cables).

Thanks for pointing out that said point could use clarifying cwyckham.

Regarding the different sail types/designations, & what they mean, & what wind ranges & angles a specfic sail is designed for, here's a place to start All Downwind | Sails | North Sails US

hoppy, on those sprits which you linked to, aside from my being curious as to how they're connected, structurally wise, to a boat. I'd recommend being cautious about using them with a true Code 0, based on the manufacturer's SWL numbers.

As, based on the way in which some guys set up their 0's, the loads would exceed the working range of those sprits. However, if you're not going for a bar taught luff, & don't have a large vessel, then odds are you're okay.
Still, do the math on your rig & running gear, first, prior to installing such a sprit.

Also, sadly, it looks as if those sprits wont accept anchors which have roll bars. Which could turn out to be problematic.
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Old 20-03-2016, 20:16   #12
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

The below, fill in's (in blue) explain some of the backstory behind the specialized gear & techniques for Code 0's. As well as an abridged version of how to get more out of any A-Sail (or conventional kite).
The full versions of which, are covered in some of the above posts, or via the links in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
This was one of the posts of Evans Starzinger which has lead my thinking on this choice of sail:

"^^
"#4 sure deeper cut sails are marginally faster than a zero cut when sailing deep, but it is really marginal in cruising terms and the above ease of handling is IMHO more important for a cruiser. With a zero you can pole either the tack or the clew if you want to go deep, and if you put a jib out in the other side you get almost the same projected area as a medium a-chute.
This is why I recommended (Dockhead, & another CF member, also) staying with/going with, an over length, "penalty pole". When talking to them.

And there is some level of description, on the how to use these techniques, as well as the why's; in the links via some of my earlier posts in this thread.

Also one of the Key bonuses of having your Code 0, or A-Sail on such a (crazy long) pole, is that it projects the sail's luff, & much more of the sail's area, out from behind the lee of the Main.
Which tends to help to stabilize the boat, & make for easier steering. In addition to providing a smoother off of the wind ride & a steadier course. Because with the luff of the kite (of any type) being further forward, & thus, in that clear air. It moves your sail plan's center of effort fuward as well.

So, consequently, you'll; roll less, go faster, & spend less time adjusting sail trim or tweaking the AP/vane. In addition to being less prone to rounding up, or wiping out. Including accidental gybes (of both kinds).

"So, the speed loss is practically speaking really small.

"#5 you do not need huge halyard tension on a zero, unless/except when sailing quite close (say closer than 50 degrees), and even this "huge" halyard tension is simply accomplished with a 2:1 halyard.

This is likey true on a lot of boats, especially cruisers. However, on some/many racing boats, when they go to set their Code 0s. They'll fully ease the backstay & runners first. And then they'll max out the tension on the Code 0's halyard, with it's 2:1 purchase & winch. After which, they'll use the hyraulics in their backstays, plus their monster runner winches, to add that much more tension to the Code 0's halyard/anti-torsion cable.

So that then, the load actually IS Huge. As it's not just being generated by a relatively "mild mannered" halyard winch, with a 2:1 purchase.
And, given this, there are a good number of sport boats on which you'll void their pole warranties, if you fly a Code 0 from them. Due to these kinds of loads being generated by such sails & their hardware.

"So there are no practical problems using a zero.

"Net net we carry two a-chutes and a zero, and have really mostly given up setting the a-chutes because the zero is so easy to set and handle and its speed penalty is so small (in cruising terms).

"A racing sailor would look at all this differently because they have different priorities and an extra tenth of a knot is the essential priority."


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Old 20-03-2016, 22:23   #13
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Also, sadly, it looks as if those sprits wont accept anchors which have roll bars. Which could turn out to be problematic.
Prior to getting one of those bowsprits I had the Selden and either way I could not have a roll bar anchor.



on the SWL, I noticed that the SWL of most units is 2500kg covering different boat sizes. Perhaps an issue for Dockhead's size of boat?

How do you know the SWL required for a C0?

Last year I watched the VOR inshore race in Auckland in light winds and most of the yachts used their C0 for most of the race, beating into the wind and tacking and then on a deep reach.
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Old 20-03-2016, 22:50   #14
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

We use a Bamar furling system for our asymmetric spinnaker. It worked out very nice last summer, total cost minus the spinnaker was around $8000. There was no need for a bow sprint.
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Old 21-03-2016, 04:44   #15
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Re: Code 0's and Sprits

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Originally Posted by hoppy View Post
Dockhead, since you like cruising the Baltic, maybe you should consider a bowsprit like the locals fit
Performance


.
I don't think that's strong enough.

The riggers suggested a retractable carbon pole which slides out next to the bow roller and is braced by a bobstay. There's a strong bulkhead for a chainplate to belay the end of it.


For Baltic mooring, which is rather awkward on my boat as the bows are quite high, about 2 meters above the waterline, I have a Batsystem ladder which hooks into the pulpit and folds down. I have a split pulpit with a seat/step in it, but it's all so high, that it's quite awkward getting on and off the boat, Baltic style. This year I may carry a folding stepladder to put on the quayside to make it a little easier.
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