No Traveller

[soares29]

When you are going close hauled in a decent breeze, it’s so nice to work that traveler on the gusts... also when the wind is light to bring it a bit upwind... the sail looks so nice...
I love to sail with a traveler!!!
Is it needed ? Do my wife and friends care ? Do I get there faster ? Does it make my beer colder ? Does it make the boat safer ? Can it hit someone’s toes ?

I don’t have the answer to most of the questions above, but I do love it...

Cheers

[Polux]

Originally Posted by soares29

When you are going close hauled in a decent breeze, it’s so nice to work that traveler on the gusts... also when the wind is light to bring it a bit upwind... the sail looks so nice...
I love to sail with a traveler!!!
....
Cheers

Yes but to do that you need a crew or at least two good sailors, one for the traveler, other for the wheel.

Many of us sail with the wive and she has not normally the knowledge or the power needed to handle a traveler on strong gusts. But I agree that is good fun, when I sail with my son I do that but it is very rare.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Polux

Yes but to do that you need a crew or at least two good sailors, one for the traveler, other for the wheel.

Many of us sail with the wive and she has not normally the knowledge or the power needed to handle a traveler on strong gusts. But I agree that is good fun, when I sail with my son I do that but it is very rare.

The other option is the one I use: singlehanded, using autopilot, always in front of the wheel trimming with the traveler going upwind, mid-boom cabin mounted full width Garhauer gear. On my boat it is MUCH easier to trim with the traveler than with the mainsheet, as soares29 said. My boat almost sails itself upwind, little hassle with the ap. Life is good.

Your boat, your choice.

[BlackHeron]

I guess many people motor most of the time, and never really try to sail upwind ever with the loud stinky thing turned off. If you are going to motor then I guess not having a traveller to control the angle of attack to the wind doesn't really matter much...or at all.

If you are going to sail, and have made a conscious decision not to motor unless it is absolutely essential, then the lack of a traveller is going to make it hard to go upwind nearly as easily, and you are going to need to reef earlier whenever reaching since you can't bring the traveller to the low side.

We know we really miss not having a traveller on our HR-35 and the Crosby mainsheet rigging really is a poor substitute even when over-using the vang. It is also sorely missed when trying to balance the sails so that the windvane self-steering gear has a smoother time of it. Having a traveller would be ideal for that. You can darn near steer the boat with the traveller instead of the rudder. Maybe a lot of folks just don't know what they are doing enough when playing with "the strings" to know what they are missing without the traveller.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

The other option is the one I use: singlehanded, using autopilot, always in front of the wheel trimming with the traveler going upwind, mid-boom cabin mounted full width Garhauer gear. On my boat it is MUCH easier to trim with the traveler than with the mainsheet, as soares29 said. My boat almost sails itself upwind, little hassle with the ap. Life is good.

Your boat, your choice. [emoji2][emoji2][emoji2]

Yes, you beat me to it. I didn't understand Paolo's comment. Using the traveler, on my boat, anyway, is no more crew-intensive than any other sail trimming. I do tack differently single handed, versus with crew (I like to pull the boat back up onto the wind by hand as she gathers speed), but mainsail trimming is far simpler with a traveler. That's because you can adjust shape and angle of attack completely separately, greatly reducing the fiddling required to get it right. Without a traveler, every time you adjust one thing, you mess up the other.

When I'm single handed, the pilot steers. Upwind, usually on wind mode. Come to think of it, even when fully crewed.

But my boat is well set up for this; YMMV. One of the advantages of a center cockpit is that the traveler can go right behind the helm position within easy reach. Mine is about 9 or 10 feet long, has a ball bearing car, triple purchase control lines, and dedicated winches at either end. It works well, but on a bigger boat, I might prefer a powered one.

[Dockhead]

Another extremely important use of the traveler is feathering the sail in gusts. I don't know how you would do that without a traveler. If you just slack the mainsheet, the leech opens up and powers up the sail, also making the sail more draggy, so increasing heel - the very opposite of what you want.

The traveler is not indeed for "fine adjustments" that's a myth. It's for controlling the angle of attack of the sail without changing the shape. Angle of attack is a basic adjustment, not a fine one. THE most basic adjustment, even more than shape.

[savoir]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Attachment 161254


If this is your model for good sail trim, then we have pretty different points of view. He's got wrinkles in the luff of the jib, the draft of the jib is way too far back, and you can't really see anything about the reefed mainsail.

How about you quit being such a snob ? The only person being demeaned by that attitude is yourself. There is nothing wrong with the trim on those sails. The boat appears to be sailing a little wide of close hauled.

I do agree that they are very old and well past their best.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by savoir

How about you quit being such a snob ? The only person being demeaned by that attitude is yourself. There is nothing wrong with the trim on those sails.

I do agree that they are very old and well past their best.

I apologize if I offended anyone, but my comment was sincere, and not an act of snobbery. That jib is very far from being well trimmed in my book. Others may have a different opinion and that's fine.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by savoir

How about you quit being such a snob ? The only person being demeaned by that attitude is yourself. There is nothing wrong with the trim on those sails. The boat appears to be sailing a little wide of close hauled.

I do agree that they are very old and well past their best.

Interesting how we interpret stuff. I just didn't see any snobbery! I do see rudeness in name calling.

It's also interesting how some see adjusting a traveller as work or effort, it's easy enough on my boat as it was my last, not quite sure how some see it so differently.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

The other option is the one I use: singlehanded, using autopilot, always in front of the wheel trimming with the traveler going upwind, mid-boom cabin mounted full width Garhauer gear. On my boat it is MUCH easier to trim with the traveler than with the mainsheet, as soares29 said. My boat almost sails itself upwind, little hassle with the ap. Life is good.

Your boat, your choice.

There are gusts and gusts. That would not work on the Aegean and other parts of the med where the gusts can be fierce going from a 13kt steady wind to 25kt on some cases, when you sail near Islands. You have to be at the wheel.

Also if you like to sail in a sportive way (and that's what traveler is about) you would be sailing near the limit and on those occasions, on most boats, the autopilot will not be able to hold the boat on a gust even if you depower the main at least on a boat over 38ft where with the strong winds you have to do a considerable force on the traveller. Alone you will not be able to do it in time to maintain course.

Off course, if you are compensating at the wheel while another crew member is working the traveler that's a different story. That's a lot of fun and allows you to sail faster and avoid reefing.

What the travel will do is to give you the ability to gain very few decimals of a knot with a slightly better sail trim, providing you know how to do it and have the will to be all the time trimming the boat as if you were racing. Some like to do that but they are very few in what regards cruisers.

Regarding your boat, your choice, my choice is to have a boat with a big traveler but that has nothing to do with accessing the advantages or disadvantages. A sister boat:

[soares29]

Those are fantastic comments and clearly a lot of passion on this topic. It breaks my heart to see a beautiful new 45 looking all shiny and powerful, but missing her traveler. It’s like gorgeous woman without her high heels... looks gorgeous and is fantastic, but didn’t reach full potential... ( lot of passion as you can see ). Cheers.

[soares29]

Originally Posted by Polux

There are gusts and gusts. That would not work on the Aegean and other parts of the med where the gusts can be fierce going from a 13kt steady wind to 25kt on some cases, when you sail near Islands. You have to be at the wheel.



Also if you like to sail in a sportive way (and that's what traveler is about) you would be sailing near the limit and on those occasions, on most boats, the autopilot will not be able to hold the boat on a gust even if you depower the main at least on a boat over 38ft where with the strong winds you have to do a considerable force on the traveller. Alone you will not be able to do it in time to maintain course.



Off course, if you are compensating at the wheel while another crew member is working the traveler that's a different story. That's a lot of fun and allows you to sail faster and avoid reefing.



What the travel will do is to give you the ability to gain very few decimals of a knot with a slightly better sail trim, providing you know how to do it and have the will to be all the time trimming the boat as if you were racing. Some like to do that but they are very few in what regards cruisers.



Regarding your boat, your choice, my choice is to have a boat with a big traveler but that has nothing to do with accessing the advantages or disadvantages. A sister boat:

Beautiful

[FlightPlan]

I had this same question when I bought my LH-58. After racing one design J-24's and S-525's, the traveler was one of the most important positions to crew. Mostly because going to weather and playing the shifts in concert with the helm, it was necessary to dump the main quickly and haul it back in point up on the course.


My current and final boat has a centerline mainsheet to electric winch configuration. It is considered to be a performance cruiser with a high aspect ratio main and jib set up. The main doesn't have the large roach in the leach of the sail as most fractional rigged boats do. In fact, sailing on main alone is real frustration on a 60 foot boat like mine. I do have a hydraulic backstay and hydraulic boom vang for trimming. I also sail with dynema strops hanging down from eye straps on the boom to where I can attach the preventers, which I use as barber haulers to trim the leach when the boom is outboard of the rail. This also helps the sloppy bounce that comes into play because so much mainsheet is strung out. When the boom is inboard of the rail, the vang works quite well and because it's hydraulic, it maintains the rise and fall of the boom.


All that said, I set up my windward sailing for 10 or 20 nautical mile legs. I won't be entering in around the bouy races with this boat. When I had the opportunity to talk to Ted Hood the designer of my Little Harbor, I asked him a lot of questions and one of them was about this subject and he said "gentlemen do not go hard into the wind" He also said when I asked about all the systems being in the bilge and the cost at risk: "If you can't afford to fix it, you should own the boat" A sobering thought indeed.

[Don C L]

Maybe I am wrong but I always kinda assumed the boats were designed for what people preferred. No disrespect intended, but many folks don't care too much about (or notice?) the main twist, but do not like a traveler eating up deck space. Still if the vang is up to the job through all points, why have a traveler? I tend to doubt a vang/gooseneck is fully able to take the strain especially on bigger boats but I am not an engineer....

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That jib is very far from being well trimmed in my book. Others may have a different opinion and that's fine.

I found through years of trail and error racing one design beach cats (and even mixed sailing PHRF) that a sail eased just a bit is faster and the boat points higher if the winds are light and spotty or oscillating (as it appears in the photo) which is why I say his sails look good for the wind he's in

Now if the wind steadies up and picks up a bit, you can go ahead and trim the sails in.

My old blown out sails (plus the thin, worn battens) were always faster in light breezes as pictured and I usually beatup on the newer boats with their new sails (with thicker/stiffer battens) in those conditions.(0-5 knots or so)

But I/we would also have a tad bit more mast rotation also (on the beach cats) in the lighter airs and less rotation as the wind speed increases

Less downhaul in lighter, more in heavier.....etc