No Traveller

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand you. It is that hard to understand that all don't like to sail and cruise the same types of boats you think that are perfect (for you)?

It is that hard to understand that somebody likes more to travel on a Ferrari on a Porsche or on a powerful motorcycle than on a high end Mercedes...even if the Mercedes is more comfortable and practical?

What defines a boat suitable for sailing oceans is the ability the boat has to face those conditions and sail, not the comfort that the sailors that own and sail it have while they are doing it. The parallel between the Ferrari or a high power motorcycle and the Mercedes is a valid one.

There is dificult to find a boat more seaworthy and able to face ocean conditions than a Swan 65, a medium light weight boat designed with that in mind. Saying as you said that the Swan 65 is "not suitable for sailing in ocean conditions" makes no sense at all and you should know it.

Saying that a high respectable naval architect like German Frers, a relatively conservative one, is stating ******** and lying while he describes the characteristics of one of their designs is....well, at least deselegante and as meaningless as stating that a Swan 65 is not suitable for ocean sailing.

What he says about the yacht seems to me a good description of the boat characteristics, one that I could have made if I was reviewing the boat and of course he knows that boat and his characteristics much better than me.

He says that it complements a "bluewater line of yachts... that.. her medium light displacement hull is powerful and beamy giving very good form stability and a nice motion at sea.. that..she will be a fun boat to own and sail the waters of the world."

and please, let's talk about travelers.

This is actually an interesting conversation.

I don't say that German Frers is writing "bullsh*t". I say he is writing advertising text. It's not lying, it's selling the dream. I could hardly condemn it -- I do it myself all the time in my own business.

Those boats are dreams -- they look cool and will -- as you said yourself -- impress the ladies, but probably more relevant, impress the guys in in the yacht club. And make one feel cool as one visualizes one's own rugged look standing behind the helm on that flat deck, striking a pose and wearing the correct cool clothing of course, and probably wearing a Patek Phillippe watch or something like that. No unsightly sailing hardware in the way to spoil the look. And making the owner feel cool is their primary purpose, because the form, and particularly the deck arrangement is not suited for sailing in ocean conditions, certainly not over long distances. Can you really not imagine being on that deck at night in the rain in the North Sea in a F7? Believe me, you don't want to be there. Green water over the bow will have nothing to stop it -- will sweep that cool flat deck from bow to stern, and your tether might save you, but it won't keep you on your feet. You want to be in a proper cockpit from which you can operate all the controls, protected from wind and green water, where you have somewhere to sit, something to brace against, and something to hold on to.

The comparison to a Ferrari is actually apt -- 99.9% of miles done in normal non-racing Ferraris are done cruising between the country club and home. This is not at all the car you would choose to drive from New York to Tierra del Fuego through deserts and jungles. Ocean sailing is like that. These boats on the contrary are made for day sails in good weather. Perfect Med boats. And again -- I'm not saying anything against them. Certainly, they are beautiful and cool boats, designed for a specific market which uses boats in a specific way, a way which is utterly and totally different from the way I use my boats. I like Ferraris, too. But the "dream" being sold in the advertising blurb is a bit of a fantasy which is not being described accurately ("sailing the oceans of the world"), but accuracy is not a typical characteristic of that kind of writing.

[Jim Cate]

I don't say that German Frers is writing "bullsh*t". I say he is writing advertising text. It's not lying, it's selling the dream.

Couldn't agree more, DH. And as you say, nothing really wrong with it, IF you have the experience to understand what the proper venue for such boats might be.

We once encountered a delivery skipper in Hobart who had just delivered a "gentleman's racer" type boat from the Pittwater area, across Bass Strait in kinda ordinary weather. This boat was similar in layout and intent to the Swan in question just a few years earlier in the design development parade. I asked how it had been, sailing in a boat without a real cockpit and no life lines or railings. His reply was that he would not be willing to make the return trip at any price. Pretty telling IMO!

Paolo is welcome to his opinion... in this case, I'll take yours!

Jim

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Couldn't agree more, DH. And as you say, nothing really wrong with it, IF you have the experience to understand what the proper venue for such boats might be.

We once encountered a delivery skipper in Hobart who had just delivered a "gentleman's racer" type boat from the Pittwater area, across Bass Strait in kinda ordinary weather. This boat was similar in layout and intent to the Swan in question just a few years earlier in the design development parade. I asked how it had been, sailing in a boat without a real cockpit and no life lines or railings. His reply was that he would not be willing to make the return trip at any price. Pretty telling IMO!

Paolo is welcome to his opinion... in this case, I'll take yours!

Jim

Struth Jim, you really have gorn native...

For the benefit of the rest of youse sailors let's run that through Ping's (Patent Pending) Translatomatic..

Strayan... 'kinda ordinary weather'
=
Queen's English as she is spoke on the Solent ' a bit fresh'
=
The english the rest of us speak ' windy enough to blow a dog orf its chain'

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Struth Jim, you really have gorn native...

For the benefit of the rest of youse sailors let's run that through Ping's (Patent Pending) Translatomatic..

Strayan... 'kinda ordinary weather'
=
Queen's English as she is spoke on the Solent ' a bit fresh'
=
The english the rest of us speak ' windy enough to blow a dog orf its chain'

thanks, Ping... I forget that most readers are monolingual!

Jim

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

. .. We once encountered a delivery skipper in Hobart who had just delivered a "gentleman's racer" type boat from the Pittwater area, across Bass Strait in kinda ordinary weather. This boat was similar in layout and intent to the Swan in question just a few years earlier in the design development parade. I asked how it had been, sailing in a boat without a real cockpit and no life lines or railings. His reply was that he would not be willing to make the return trip at any price. Pretty telling IMO!
. ..

Yes, that's more or less what the professional racers said about the Swan 60 I spent the day on. But the language was more colorful!

Great day sailers, though, those boats.

[Jim Cate]

But the language was more colorful!

Well, my quotation wasn't really complete, due to the CF rules. Suffice it to say that this colonial fellow, being an Aussie sailor, used some colorful terms too!

Jim