No Traveller

[Dockhead]

The HR 64: Hallberg-Rassy 64 Doesn't have any traveller, nor any extra sheeting points for the mainsheet. The end of the mainsheet is simply fixed to an eye on the centerline. How the heck do you trim the mainsail? Is the theory that if the vang is powerful enough, you can just use the mainsheet for all angle of attack adjustments? Does this actually work? Another boat I've been on without a traveller is a racing Swan 60, which has a winch below the after deck to control the mainsheet as the only control of boom angle. A racing boat, so this must not be such a wacky idea which so much compromises control. Anyone have any insight?

[TJ D]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The HR 64: Hallberg-Rassy 64 Doesn't have any traveller, nor any extra sheeting points for the mainsheet. The end of the mainsheet is simply fixed to an eye on the centerline. How the heck do you trim the mainsail? Is the theory that if the vang is powerful enough, you can just use the mainsheet for all angle of attack adjustments? Does this actually work? Another boat I've been on without a traveller is a racing Swan 60, which has a winch below the after deck to control the mainsheet as the only control of boom angle. A racing boat, so this must not be such a wacky idea which so much compromises control. Anyone have any insight?

I think you're right about the vang- boom angle with the sheet, leech control with the vang.

I'm sure it's mostly ok, but it seems like a bit of an omission to me- there are times when you want the sheeting point somewhere other than the centerline, vang or not, eh? But, if it works for Swan on the race course, it must not be all that important...

Of course, if leech control is all down to the vang, it will surely be very highly loaded. That's a big lever there.

So, the short answer is that I actually don't have any insights.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by TJ D

I think you're right about the vang- boom angle with the sheet, leech control with the vang.

I'm sure it's mostly ok, but it seems like a bit of an omission to me- there are times when you want the sheeting point somewhere other than the centerline, vang or not, eh? But, if it works for Swan on the race course, it must not be all that important...

Of course, if leech control is all down to the vang, it will surely be very highly loaded. That's a big lever there.

So, the short answer is that I actually don't have any insights.

Well, the Swan I was on had a massive hydraulic vang. Not the lever pump up kind, but powered by a hydraulic motor which ran all the time and operated the winches etc. I'm not sure I like this so much -- you can't sail the boat if the hydro pump goes down! I have and love and very much depend on 4x electric winches, but I can crank them by hand if necessary. So I guess that's probably what this boils down to and why this is not more widespread. Sure does reduce the number of ropes on deck, though. The HR64 (I studied this boat intensely because it was the last production boat I seriously considered for my next boat) has only 4 winches, all used for sheets (not counting winches on the mast). All the furling, outhauls, etc. are done by hydraulics. How the runners are operated I never was able to figure out.

[Paul L]

It may not have a Traveller, but it does have fine furniture down below.
As TJ mentioned, the Vang is going to be really highly loaded a lot of the time. It'll put a ton more stress on the boom at the Vang connections due to the distance between the Vang and the sheet connection. Not something that I'd want on a cruising boat. Goosenecks, vangs, booms and travellers take enough of a beating offshore.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

It may not have a Traveller, but it does have fine furniture down below.
As TJ mentioned, the Vang is going to be really highly loaded a lot of the time. It'll put a ton more stress on the boom at the Vang connections due to the distance between the Vang and the sheet connection. Not something that I'd want on a cruising boat. Goosenecks, vangs, booms and travellers take enough of a beating offshore.

OK, point well taken. I guess if it is really properly engineered for it, that's not necessarily a problem, but it doesn't feel so good, does it? This task on my boat is solved in the conventional way with miles of cordage and a lot of deck hardware, sheeted from the end of the boom with something like 4x purchase, long traveler with dedicated winches for the traveler car. It's awkward when you sail downwind because of the huge length of mainsheet you have to let out because of all the purchase, and there's a lot of cordage and hardware involved. But you have perfect control and no item of gear is highly stressed.

[Paul L]

DH
I'm not comfortable with the catch all of properly engineered. Most boats never experience the extended duty required for long offshore passages. So if they build 100 of them and only see one failure, you could say it was reasonably properly engineered. But if say only 20 of those boats actually did extensive passages the one failure might get interpreted as clearly too high a failure rate.
I'm always surprised to see how much damage occurs on what look like heavily built systems at the gooseneck and Vang. You see lots of weld repairs, etc going on after a group of boats does the Pacific.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Paul L

DH
I'm not comfortable with the catch all of properly engineered. Most boats never experience the extended duty required for long offshore passages. So if they build 100 of them and only see one failure, you could say it was reasonably properly engineered. But if say only 20 of those boats actually did extensive passages the one failure might get interpreted as clearly too high a failure rate.
I'm always surprised to see how much damage occurs on what look like heavily built systems at the gooseneck and Vang. You see lots of weld repairs, etc going on after a group of boats does the Pacific.

The concept of "properly engineered" should comprehend everything you mentioned, but the point is well taken -- that actual "proper engineering" of such a solution may be really hard and may not actually happen. So, I actually do find this pretty persuasive. Thanks.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The HR 64: Hallberg-Rassy 64 Doesn't have any traveller, nor any extra sheeting points for the mainsheet. The end of the mainsheet is simply fixed to an eye on the centerline. How the heck do you trim the mainsail? Is the theory that if the vang is powerful enough, you can just use the mainsheet for all angle of attack adjustments? Does this actually work? Another boat I've been on without a traveller is a racing Swan 60, which has a winch below the after deck to control the mainsheet as the only control of boom angle. A racing boat, so this must not be such a wacky idea which so much compromises control. Anyone have any insight?

I think that if it has a furling main then the traveller is not important as the vang is doing the work. This came about as it was realised that the traveller was never being used so it makes no sense to have one. I rarely use mine and have now reduced the main sheet from 4:1 to 2:1 which was not the original design but works fine in all conditions.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I think that if it has a furling main then the traveller is not important as the vang is doing the work. This came about as it was realised that the traveller was never being used so it makes no sense to have one. I rarely use mine and have now reduced the main sheet from 4:1 to 2:1 which was not the original design but works fine in all conditions.

I don't understand at all what the main being a furling one, has to do with how you use the traveler. Maybe I'm missing something, but the issues of angle of attack versus leech control seem to be exactly the same to me. I use the traveler on my furling main boat intensively, and I wish it were longer so I could use it at lower angles. Mainsails are exquisitely sensitive to very small changes in angle of attack, and there is nothing like a ball bearing car traveler with multiple purchase control lines, to give you that fine control. Is it really different on your boat?

[Dockhead]

And speaking of which, it would be very easy to design a simple and robust powered traveler, using a worm & nut mechanism below decks.

[Fuss]

On inmast furling you want the angle that the sail furls away to always be the same. To achieve this you need a very meaty boom vang to keep the boom in the correct position. Mine keeps the boom in whatever position I choose regardless of what the main sheet is doing. The main sheets only purpose is to let the boom in and out. If you have the traditional triangular shaped typical in Mast furling main then, is the traveller really important for your leech trimming? What sort of vang do you have, is it powerful?

[Pete7]

How much extra speed do you get by adjusting the main sheeting position with a traveller on say a 64ft yacht? note the website majors on the clean and uncluttered deck as a selling point, is this more important than an extra knot or two for the intended market?

Pete

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I think that if it has a furling main then the traveller is not important as the vang is doing the work. This came about as it was realised that the traveller was never being used so it makes no sense to have one. I rarely use mine and have now reduced the main sheet from 4:1 to 2:1 which was not the original design but works fine in all conditions.

I'm not sure I agree with that, in fact I use my traveller more with my inmast furling boat than I did with the fully batterned main on my last boat as I need to control the unsupported Leech more.

[thomm225]

My boat doesn't have a traveler or a vang and I can trim the main quiet easily especially since I'm just cruising the boat. It has a double block on the boom and a single on each side of the boat. One with a cam cleat. That's it

My racing boats, beach cats (4) , had the standard 7'-8' Traveler which did make things nice especially with spinnaker because the downwind angle was much higher (than non-spin boats) and the main was sheeted quite tight (at least in stronger winds) right above the traveler

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

How much extra speed do you get by adjusting the main sheeting position with a traveller on say a 64ft yacht? note the website majors on the clean and uncluttered deck as a selling point, is this more important than an extra knot or two for the intended market?

Pete

Well, many cruisers sail with the mainsail just kind of stuck up in the wind somehow. They don't care much about the angle of attack or even shape of the mainsail as long as they are getting a bit of drive. Other people really like to sail, make the mainsail into a proper wing, and get it oriented just so into the wind. The second group, and you can put me in there, would just not accept not having control over the angle of attack of the sail.