No Traveller

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Fuss

it's not a motor sailer!
but as you see, 64 feet with inmast furling and you don't need a traveller.
i think the big oysters and wallys have this concept too.
let's just accept this fact and not try to make out the hr64 is a motorsailer.

What with several tonnes of fuel on board, what do you think HR are expecting owners to do with that? The boat has been set up to make sailing a large vessel easy, so big engine, in mast reefing etc to ensure they arrive on time each evening for the table they booked in a local restaurant.

HR are selling a life style, not a performance yacht.

Pete

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Attachment 161254


If this is your model for good sail trim, then we have pretty different points of view. He's got wrinkles in the luff of the jib, the draft of the jib is way too far back, and you can't really see anything about the reefed mainsail.

A few wrinkles are fine in light air

The sails are about right for the wind he's sailing in especially if it's oscillating a bit................it doesn't have to be perfect in those winds.

He's getting what he can from those sails and looks like he's the lead boat!

Many cruisers with top notch equipment think they are great sail trimmers but few have raced their boat against other boats of the exact same type where an inch or so of sheet trim can lose the race for you not to mention downhaul, mast rake, prebend, batten selection, starting position, course side selection, etc

[Kenomac]

Most of the people we know actually out cruising, really couldn’t care any less if they go a half knot or knot faster hopping from place to place fussing with sail trim. Polux and Dockhead are the only exceptions. The HR64 is probably built with the vast majority of buyers in mind.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Most of the people we know actually out cruising, really couldn’t care any less if they go a half knot or knot faster hopping from place to place fussing with sail trim. Polux and Dockhead are the only exceptions. The HR64 is probably built with the vast majority of buyers in mind.

I agree Ken, but I'm more about improving the comfort and making it easier on the boat. Eg. If you can keep the boat on its feet more it's more comfortable.
My changing genoa to jib was based on balancing the boat better, it just happens to go faster now as well. There was several times this year on long passages (1000+) that the genoa in certain conditions was making the boat behave not as well as it should regardless of how I had it furled, it was very hard on the autopilot thus I've opted for a small better shaped headsail.
Also I have a really good traveller by letting it out to leeward it allows more Leech tension and the boat sails better, faster and more comfortable, takes no more than twenty secs.
Dh and polux are definitely more performance orientated than me but these little adjustments make life better on long passages.
Oh, also a shorter passage is a better passage as far as I'm concerned, I don't like them.. Lol.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Most of the people we know actually out cruising, really couldn’t care any less if they go a half knot or knot faster hopping from place to place fussing with sail trim. Polux and Dockhead are the only exceptions. The HR64 is probably built with the vast majority of buyers in mind.

Which is why cruising can be so enjoyable once you can slow down enough to enjoy the show.........

Instead of it being all about the boat, boat setup, competition, course management, etc cruising allows you to simply enjoy being on the water and staying in those out of the way places should that be your desire

(and) If you feel the need, you can try to get the very most out of your boat as far as performance should the mood strike you

[Greg4cocokai]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

And speaking of which, it would be very easy to design a simple and robust powered traveler, using a worm & nut mechanism below decks.

I delivered a 2017 FP 58' catamaran from Panama to California that had that system. Pretty simple, and worked well!

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The concept of "properly engineered" should comprehend everything you mentioned, but the point is well taken -- that actual "proper engineering" of such a solution may be really hard and may not actually happen. So, I actually do find this pretty persuasive. Thanks.

It is properly engineered, -- until it breaks ! Sometimes the difference between men and boys is the intricacy of their toys.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Attachment 161254


If this is your model for good sail trim, then we have pretty different points of view. He's got wrinkles in the luff of the jib, the draft of the jib is way too far back, and you can't really see anything about the reefed mainsail.

A bit more about the skipper of the boat in the attachment above and sail trim:

Re: CF Member Subject of Article : Boat Alexandra
Gosh, tucked away here in Southern Africa, its not often that we can relate directly to the original OP when people are the topic. A year ago, ( or was it 2 ) I had the immense pleasure of meeting Sean when he sailed into Richards Bay in South Africa. He spent about 3 months here. On arrival, Sean towed his boat onto the key as he paddled his surf ski. He came sailing with me during a social Wednesday race. His advice on sail trim was excellent. He also offered a free lecture at our Zululand Yacht Club club on Open CPN which was equally fantabulous. His minimalistic existence was awe inspiring. He advised me that his objective was to sustain himself on a dollar a day and that he required nothing more. He certainly did not want for anything. I was honestly confused and questioned his extreme subsistence lifestyle. Yet I paradoxically developed an immense respect for him. What was immensely apparent was Sean's intellect. He was clearly intelligently gifted and my final conclusion that he was like an Einstein but with no material needs or aspirations. His boat drew much attention, particularly his cooking methods of a few twigs under his little black pot. Whilst he may cut corners and offend authorities and critics, it was very apparent to me that he intended no malice at all. He is clearly a gentle, unassuming sole who cared little for what people thought of his chosen lifestyle. I am pleased to say that we were able to offer Sean some assistance and we welcomed him into our sailing community. Sean, we wish you well. It was a pleasure meeting you and having you as my guest on Ypsilanti. You made an immense impression of myself and my sailing colleagues.

[billknny]

Getting back to the original question... there is one word I have not see mentioned at all in this discussion: twist. When you are trimming a mainsail there are two variables that are important, one is the angle of the sail, and the other is the twist.

If you have no traveller you can not adjust the twist of the sail while hard on the wind. To get the angle tight enough you have to pull down so hard on the boom that you remove all the twist. That's bad in light air. And you can ever really get the boom over the centerline for good upwind work.

I do not have a fixed vang and would never trade one for the traveller. A traveller makes sail trim easy for close hauled and close reaching work. For off the wind work just run a block and tackle to the rail as a vang. Mast rigged vangs are by far and away the biggest cause of boom failures. The loads are insanely high. I think fixed vangs are one of the things where cruisers copy race boats without really thinking about the costs.

And no, a fixed vang is NOT needed for a mast furling mainsail. With a properly designed furling system all you need do is keep the boom from rising too high. Easily done without the expense, complexity and high loads of a mast mounted vang.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by billknny

Getting back to the original question... there is one word I have not see mentioned at all in this discussion: twist. When you are trimming a mainsail there are two variables that are important, one is the angle of the sail, and the other is the twist.

If you have no traveller you can not adjust the twist of the sail while hard on the wind. To get the angle tight enough you have to pull down so hard on the boom that you remove all the twist. That's bad in light air. And you can ever really get the boom over the centerline for good upwind work.

I do not have a fixed vang and would never trade one for the traveller. A traveller makes sail trim easy for close hauled and close reaching work. For off the wind work just run a block and tackle to the rail as a vang. Mast rigged vangs are by far and away the biggest cause of boom failures. The loads are insanely high. I think fixed vangs are one of the things where cruisers copy race boats without really thinking about the costs.

And no, a fixed vang is NOT needed for a mast furling mainsail. With a properly designed furling system all you need do is keep the boom from rising too high. Easily done without the expense, complexity and high loads of a mast mounted vang.

If you don't have a traveler, you can run a separate line to center the main even though it's usually not needed for your average cruising boat. Even when reaching, you can bring the boom down with another line if necessary

There's always another way to do things especially since when cruising you can be on one tack for so long whereas in racing you may only be on a tack for just a few minutes

[billknny]

Originally Posted by thomm225

If you don't have a traveler, you can run a separate line to center the main even though it's usually not needed for your average cruising boat. Even when reaching, you can bring the boom down with another line if necessary

There's always another way to do things especially since when cruising you can be on one tack for so long whereas in racing you may be on one tack for just a few minutes

Or you can run twin mainsheets one to each side, and have great control of the boom... or lots of other things but that wasn't the original question...

[TJ D]

[QUOTE=billknny;2545397]Getting back to the original question... there is one word I have not see mentioned at all in this discussion: twist. When you are trimming a mainsail there are two variables that are important, one is the angle of the sail, and the other is the twist.
QUOTE]

When we were talking about leech control, I think you can safely substitute 'twist' for that. That was what I meant, anyway. I'm sure DH did too.

[Cheechako]

Most of my boats had travelers that were of limited width and so had minimal impact. I had a 4 part, quick release "barber hauler" that I used pulling the main boom to the side for reaching etc or when the boom wanted to flop around in light airs.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

Most of my boats had travelers that were of limited width and so had minimal impact.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I've seen many of those. I am fortunate enough to have a full width and useful traveler, as well as a rigid boom vang. Yes, angle of attack and twist CAN be controlled properly with the right hardware. In my case, both are made by Garhauer.

[Don C L]

I was just pondering this the other day while out... how much help does a short traveler at the end of the boom really give for leech tension? Not much. My boat had a roller furling boom many years ago but the PO switched to slab and added a vang and switched from a traveler to a bridle. In my case, since my boat is not so big and the load on the vang, boom and gooseneck are not too high it seems to be fine. However a decent length traveler, especially mid-boom, is a stronger way to go I would guess. And with my bridle I cannot center the boom all the way which is a drawback. So I may just put the traveler back on. That plus a preventer vang can take care of a lot but there is still some degrees in there, around a beam reach, where control of the boom is not as effective without a vang. A powerful vang and boom takes care of all angles. BTW what was the boat that had that long curved traveler mid-boom... was it an Etchells? I never sailed one but I always thought that looked like the best solution but would really be in the way for a cruising boat.