Dyneema instead of stainless for stays and shrouds

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Where did you get your composite thimbles?

Those look like anodized colligo thimbles

[jt11791]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Those look like anodized colligo thimbles

Correct, Colligo anodized aluminum.

[jt11791]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This was such a provocative question that I repost it here! We use and trust Dyneema life lines, but this question does merit an answer from some knowledgeable soul.

Jim

Synthetic (Dyneema) lifelines are allowed.

From the minutes of the US Sailing Oceanic and Offshore Committee
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documen...5B18034%5D.pdf


On a proposal by Jacques Lehn, seconded by Will Apold it was approved on a vote of 14 in favour, 1 abstention and 0 against:

To amend (effective 1 January 2015) OSR 3.14.6 Lifeline Minimum Diameters, Required Materials , Specifications as indicated below and to enlarge the working party to undertake technical studies with external assistance :

a) Lifelines shall be of:

- stranded stainless steel wire. or

- High Modulus Polyethylene (HMPE) (Dyneema®/Spectra® or equivalent) rope (Braid on braid is recommended)

b) The minimum diameter is specified in table 8 below **

c) Stainless steel lifelines shall be uncoated and used without close-fitting sleeving, however, temporary sleeving may be fitted provided it is regularly removed for inspection.

d) When stainless wire is used, Grade 316 is recommended. **

e) When HMPE (Dyneema®/Spectra®) is used, it shall be protected from chafe and spliced in accordance with the manufacturer’s

recommended procedures.

f) A taut lanyard of synthetic rope may be used to secure lifelines provided the gap it closes does not exceed 100 mm (4in). This lanyard shall be replaced annually at a minimum.

g) All wire, fittings, anchorage points, fixtures and lanyards shall comprise a lifeline enclosure system which has at all points at least the breaking strength of the required lifeline wire.


**
TABLE 8 – Minimum Diameters
LOA Wire HMPE rope (Singlebraid) HMPE Core (Braidon braid)

Under 8.5 m (28 ft) 3mm (1/8 in) 4mm (5/32 in) 4mm (5/32 in)

8.5 m – 13 m 4mm (5/32 in) 5mm (3/16 in) 5mm (3/16 in)

Over 13 m (43 ft) 5mm (3/16 in) 5mm (3/16 in)

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

This was such a provocative question that I repost it here! We use and trust Dyneema life lines, but this question does merit an answer from some knowledgeable soul.

Jim

In the absence of a knowledgeable soul, I'll just point out that racing rules aren't always based on good seamanship or common sense--look at all the atrocities of boat design that racing rules have engendered, like miles-long overhangs or boats with bustles or yawl rigs. Also, the mentality of keep-everybody-safe-no-matter-what can give rise to some kooky rules aimed at the lowest common intelligence. For example, the dive instructors that insist on putting in a snorkel the moment you surface regardless of sea state, or the rockclimbing instructors that can not deal with an anchor that is not three points equalized with a cordelette. The same mentality bleeds into racing rules, and a sport that is already irrational becomes more so.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Benz

In the absence of a knowledgeable soul, I'll just point out that racing rules aren't always based on good seamanship or common sense--look at all the atrocities of boat design that racing rules have engendered, like miles-long overhangs or boats with bustles or yawl rigs. Also, the mentality of keep-everybody-safe-no-matter-what can give rise to some kooky rules aimed at the lowest common intelligence. For example, the dive instructors that insist on putting in a snorkel the moment you surface regardless of sea state, or the rockclimbing instructors that can not deal with an anchor that is not three points equalized with a cordelette. The same mentality bleeds into racing rules, and a sport that is already irrational becomes more so.

Possibly some valid points there, Ben, but it does not answer the question. Race boat are allowed Dyneema standing rigging but not Dyneema life lines. Why is this ok? There is usually SOME rationale behind the rules!

Jim

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by jt11791

Correct, Colligo anodized aluminum.

Im on the Colligo web site. Great setup they have to order rigging. Everything is very pricy of course.

I notice they say the aluminum is "Aircraft Grade" which is almost meaningless since there are many different grades of aluminum that the aerospace industry uses.
Myself coming from the aerospace industry as a materials and composites expert its almost a comical expression to me. Im assuming they mean some kind of alloy like 6082 for marine use.

Im surprized they do not use titanium for the prices they charge. Also i know of a chopped carbon fiber PE composite mix that would be stronger than any aluminum alloy and not have the erosion problems of aluminum. Andonized finish wears off after awhile.

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Possibly some valid points there, Ben, but it does not answer the question. Race boat are allowed Dyneema standing rigging but not Dyneema life lines. Why is this ok? There is usually SOME rationale behind the rules!

Jim

In NZ I was told it was because some just did a straight replacement of stainless with Dyneema passing through sharp edged holes in the stanchions. Failures caused them to ban it.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Possibly some valid points there, Ben, but it does not answer the question. Race boat are allowed Dyneema standing rigging but not Dyneema life lines. Why is this ok? There is usually SOME rationale behind the rules!

Jim

This is a guess on my part, but... If/when lifelines on racing boats break, 90%+ of your crew will wind up in the water, due to how racers hike out to increase a boat's Rm. Which of course is a very dangerous situation. More so than if a rig falls down due to it's shrouds failing. Can't say as I've heard of any (or many) deaths due to dismastings. Dumping the whole crew into 50 deg F water is another story entirely.

To add to this, lifelines take a lot more of a beating, especially on racing boats, than does standing rigging. Some of this being due to how much potential there is for metal chafe on cordage lifelines, especially due to hiking. And the fact that if there are any burrs at all in the stanchion ferrules, the lifelines get chewed on with each tack as the crew switches sides, & slides under & against them to hike out on the new high side.

On top of which, racing boats tend to have a lot of moving running rigging on deck that can chafe the lifelines if someone's not paying attention to where sheets & other various control lines are led. So you can have abrasion from say spin sheets or jib sheets rubbing on the lifelines. This isn't so much the case in terms of running rigging rubbing on shrouds, except perhaps for the bottom 2-3m of the cap shrouds. Assuming they're not covered with chafe sleeve.

Also, standing rigging tends to get attention paid to it, maintenance & inspection wise, as compared to lifeines. Including that on bigger boats, whoever does the maintenance, goes up the rig to inspect it with some regularity. This coupled with the bowman doing the same; before, during, & after races.

There's the political thing too, as mentioned. Plus if you were to make everyone switch back from dyneema to wire or rod, you'd have a LOT of very irate boat owners. To some degree rightfully so, as the costs to do such rigging swaps is quite expensive. Especially if you take into account the fact that on your average 40'er, there's 4x as much cordage or wire used for her standing rigging, as compared to how much is used in the same boat's lifelines. With most of the cordage used for standing rigging being much, much more expensive than that used for lifelines. Both in terms of material costs due to type, & that standing rigging is quite often going to be much larger diameter wise than that used for lifelines. So you get hit fiscally in multiple ways when switching rigging types.

Then there's the weight aloft issue... A biggie in racing circles. With a carbon fiber mast, & metal rigging, the rigging often outweighs the spar. Which obviously ain't the case with dyneema. And that's a hard djinn to stuff back into the bottle.

[fxykty]

I’m looking at replacing our standing rigging on our cat - two shrouds and the forestay. The diamonds are 14mm SS wire and replaced a year ago, but the rest is 8 years old. The lifelines also need replacing as they are, AFAIK, original to the boat (2003).

I’ve been talking to a local rigger who does all the local high end race boats as well as Emirates Team NZ (America’s Cup y’all). His advice for a cruising cat are to stick with SS wire. First reason is the longevity - SS is insured for 10 years, synthetic life is less. Second is availability of replacement rigging - SS everywhere as it is common and synthetic you either carry a spare set or likely have to ship it in. On the cat the reduction in weight and righting moment is not that big a deal.

Regarding the life lines, they either coat the entire synthetic life line with a plastic tube, or only a 5cm section at every stanchion. Wire life lines apparently polish a very sharp edge and this needs to be protected. Synthetic life lines done like this are YNZ compliant.

Maybe not quite ready for offshore cruising for standing rigging?

[Benz]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Im on the Colligo web site. Great setup they have to order rigging. Everything is very pricy of course.

I notice they say the aluminum is "Aircraft Grade" which is almost meaningless since there are many different grades of aluminum that the aerospace industry uses.
Myself coming from the aerospace industry as a materials and composites expert its almost a comical expression to me. Im assuming they mean some kind of alloy like 6082 for marine use.

Im surprized they do not use titanium for the prices they charge. Also i know of a chopped carbon fiber PE composite mix that would be stronger than any aluminum alloy and not have the erosion problems of aluminum. Andonized finish wears off after awhile.

I thought "aircraft aluminum" was officially 7075. If I was making their kit, I'd probably use plain 6061.
What is the price difference, do you think, between having alloy parts made and the carbon fiber PE? does it come in stock that can be machined? or is it 3D printed or have to be cast? How would it deal with abrasion? Would lanyards run smoothly though the holes?
Finally, if you think Colligo kit is expensive, check out what Equiplite and Facnor and Karver are getting for their kit. It'll blow your socks off.

[estarzinger]

If you all want to hear direct about OSR thinking just ask Chuck Hawley (he is around here occasionally). He has been directly personally involved for quite a while.

I was directly involved in much of the lifeline debate. The bottom line at the end was that stainless was pretty reliable, and that dyneema incurred additional risk in a safety function.

Dyneema was initially approved based on its technical merits. But then, out in the real world, there were more failures than people expected, and it was then banned. Many of these failures were the result on installation flaws (you can probably find incident discussions about several of these by google as a couple were quite public) - however some of these poor installations were done by "Pro's" and there was thinking if we can't trust them to do a proper job then it is too delicate to allow in such a critical function. And there have been reports by elite pro sailors on some of the maxed out race boats of failures not due to installation flaws (spin sheets zipping over the life lines and such) - I have not seen any of those first hand.

The YNZ prescription is an interesting attempt at compromise "If fibre used instead of wire e.g. single braided dyneema, spectra, vectran, dynex or similar, there can be no tolerance for wear. Material must be protected from U.V. and chafe by a sheath. Sheath can be taken as an overbraided core over the main load member of the same material or another type of material. The strength of the fibre must be equal to or greater than that of the appropriate stainless steel wire." But it is hard to execute unless you put a hard plastic tube over the entire length of life line. Fabric covers (eg an over braid sleeve) in fact does not block so much UV. And sleeves at only the stanchion points does not prevent possible moving chafe/cuts (like the zipping spin sheets).

Now, as to dyneema in standing rigging OSR's. I never heard it even discussed. I know there is dyneema rigging used in small boat classes, but I do not believe there is very much at all used in the bigger keel boat classes which the OSR focus on. There are better alternatives available (in torque stays which need to be flexible, Kevlar or PBO fibres are both preferred). UnCiv is also correct that the 'lives at risk' calculation places greater focus on the lifelines than on the rigging (in a racing context). In fact the OSR's have always pretty much left the rigging to the owners judgement just saying it must be "3.01.1 Properly rigged".

As noted in a post above, I personally would have concerns about dyneema shrouds in the sort of cruising we did (extra risk without much benefit vs dyform/norseman's), and I would also pick other better choices if I was racing. But, as in most things boat related, other sailors/cruisers may well decide to make those trades off differently and I wish them well

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by Benz

I thought "aircraft aluminum" was officially 7075. If I was making their kit, I'd probably use plain 6061.
What is the price difference, do you think, between having alloy parts made and the carbon fiber PE? does it come in stock that can be machined? or is it 3D printed or have to be cast? How would it deal with abrasion? Would lanyards run smoothly though the holes?
Finally, if you think Colligo kit is expensive, check out what Equiplite and Facnor and Karver are getting for their kit. It'll blow your socks off.

Yeah back in the day, before i was in the business haha, 7075 was fairly popular for aircraft before formulating better alloys. but now we use several different alloys on airplanes depending on the application and stress involved. There is better alloys than 7075 for anticorosion. Hard to beat 6061 for overall fabrication, but should be coated for marine use.

Right now we are making parts by injection mold and pressmold with the chopped carbon/PE mix, 3D printing is ok for making prototypes which we do, but can only use carbon powder which makes much less tensile strength parts.

There is a new technology called linear strand 3D printing but is still in the developement phase.

I think these rigging companies or the wholesalers, dont know who in the chain it is, but they must be making atleast 10 times cost. I know because we are making products out of the same materials.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by SV Windrush II

Yeah back in the day, before i was in the business haha, 7075 was fairly popular for aircraft before formulating better alloys. but now we use several different alloys on airplanes depending on the application and stress involved. There is better alloys than 7075 for anticorosion. Hard to beat 6061 for overall fabrication, but should be coated for marine use.

Right now we are making parts by injection mold and pressmold with the chopped carbon/PE mix, 3D printing is ok for making prototypes which we do, but can only use carbon powder which makes much less tensile strength parts.

There is a new technology called linear strand 3D printing but is still in the developement phase.

I think these rigging companies or the wholesalers, dont know who in the chain it is, but they must be making atleast 10 times cost. I know because we are making products out of the same materials.

I'd love to handle something made from this carbon PE--it sounds like great stuff. I'm testing right now on my boat some 3D-printed belaying pins, but the fanciest material is nylon-12, and printing is still far more expensive than tuning pins out on a lathe.
And yes, everyone who handles every bit of rigging is making money. But my point is that I found Colligo quite reasonable compared to rigging products from the other guys. Ever buy a Harken 75 lashing block?

[kryg]

Frankly I have a different negative experience with John Franta, Colligo.

After receiving his email advert, I contacted John and agreed to sent sail plans and detailed photos of my rigging and information for Skoiern to change the rigging to Synthetic for a quote. After he receive my information he never bothered to reply to a number of follow up emails. I have no idea what he has done with my boat drawings. rigging photos and detail boat information.

Yet I still receive his Colligo emails on his products. Typical case of that the right hand is doing the left hand does not see.

I find that a person or company who does not reply or is too lazy to recognize the effort in supplying best information for a quote can't be relied on.

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

You're welcome. Also, the owner of Colligo Marine, John Franta is a member here. Maybe by the handle J.Franta or something similar. He's real easy to talk to, so if you're seriously thinking about synthetic rigging, give him a call. I threw a lot of quite technical questions at him, & he never missed a beat, answering them almost 100%. And I've been around more than my share of rigging, or so I'm told.

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by Benz

I'd love to handle something made from this carbon PE--it sounds like great stuff. I'm testing right now on my boat some 3D-printed belaying pins, but the fanciest material is nylon-12, and printing is still far more expensive than tuning pins out on a lathe.
And yes, everyone who handles every bit of rigging is making money. But my point is that I found Colligo quite reasonable compared to rigging products from the other guys. Ever buy a Harken 75 lashing block?

You can try using PC, but needs to be run at higher temp and a heated bed that can be 130c or higher.

Maybe we should start a thread about making sailing hardware using 3D printers, i personally have been using them for about 10 years with my design engineering projects, but its a industry where it is continually evolving and im learning new things all the time.