Storm sails

[sailingharry]

We have a new-to-us Saga 43. The PO has done two trans-Atlantic passages, including an ARC.



The boat has a Solent rig, so a 150% on the outside stay, and a 90% on the inside stay. We have pair of North 3Di NorDac jibs on order, and the direction to the sailmaker was to make the inside jib good partially furled to 50 kts. There will be no foam luff in either sail (in normal conditions, they will be used full size, selecting the sail for the conditions. If I reef the 90%, I don't care much about upwind sail shape).


The main is a heavy Hydranet with 3 reefs, the 3rd at about 50% of hoist (or 25% of original sail area). The main has a Stack Pack.



The boat came with an ATN Gale Sail (in white), and a storm trysail (also in white) with a dedicated track. I have heard from someone who helped test set the trysail that it almost matches the main at the 3rd reef.


Our initial intention is extensive, but near-shore, cruising. In the next 2 years, we don't intend to be more than 200 miles from shore, probably much less. A trans-Atlantic (and back) are in our longer plans.



So, with that background, I'm really torn on the value of carrying either sail.


The Gale Sail is, as has often been discussed, an unworkable sail that I think exists to meet offshore racing rules for boats that have roller furling, or perhaps cruisers with only a single headsail that can't be effectively shortened. In our case, I think a half-in reef on the 90% jib should provide decent reaching/running/steerage in winds to 50+.


The storm trysail is a real problem. With a stack pack, how do you set it? Inside the lazy jacks? Outside? How do you tack? As I look at our deck, there does not seem to be a decent lead for the traditional sheets (but could it lead to the boom end?). But with a serious duty main that reefs to the size of the trysail, is there even a point?


Between the two non-storm sails, (one, the other, or both), I think we can easily provide sails for winds to 50+.


Would you carry either storm sail aboard? And, before I dispose of them, does "having them aboard" meet any rules I might see in the future -- say an ARC (which this boat has done and may be the reason they exist).


Harry

[Jim Cate]

Harry, I can't speak re future rules, but our boat is quite similar to yours in size and rig (though ors is fractional, not masthead), and we've chosen to go without either storm jib or trysail. We too have a heavy Hydranet main with an even deeper third reef, and if needed can roll the Solent jib down to storm jib size. We've found that in heavy going we tend to sail on the reefed main alone unless sailing very deep angles, and then strike the main and use a bit of reefed Solent.

This boat won't do a traditional "heave to" due to excessive windage forward (I think), but will fore reach slowly at around 60 deg apparent with just the deep reefed main pulled a bit to windward of the center line. When set up like that she needs little input from the a/p save when the bow gets knocked way down by a breaking wave.

I'm not particularly advocating that you do the same, just outlining our experience FWIW.

Jim

[sailingharry]

Jim,


I saw a post from late last year where you were discussing heavy weather, and I hoped I'd hear from you. Our boats are rather similar, in length, performance, Solent rig, and only two on board. Your thoughts are valuable.


Thanks

Harry

[Benz]

Unless you can pretty easily set up your storm try'sl, you're never going to want to use it, even if you want to use it. Mine is dead simple to set up, and I still hesitate to go up and hoist it, and push the second reefed main as long as possible.

I've actually used an ATN Gale Sail in anger, and found it very useful, if for no other reason than that I wasn't worried about unduly wearing the jib.

[slug]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

We have a new-to-us Saga 43. The PO has done two trans-Atlantic passages, including an ARC.



The boat has a Solent rig, so a 150% on the outside stay, and a 90% on the inside stay. We have pair of North 3Di NorDac jibs on order, and the direction to the sailmaker was to make the inside jib good partially furled to 50 kts. There will be no foam luff in either sail (in normal conditions, they will be used full size, selecting the sail for the conditions. If I reef the 90%, I don't care much about upwind sail shape).


The main is a heavy Hydranet with 3 reefs, the 3rd at about 50% of hoist (or 25% of original sail area). The main has a Stack Pack.



The boat came with an ATN Gale Sail (in white), and a storm trysail (also in white) with a dedicated track. I have heard from someone who helped test set the trysail that it almost matches the main at the 3rd reef.


Our initial intention is extensive, but near-shore, cruising. In the next 2 years, we don't intend to be more than 200 miles from shore, probably much less. A trans-Atlantic (and back) are in our longer plans.



So, with that background, I'm really torn on the value of carrying either sail.


The Gale Sail is, as has often been discussed, an unworkable sail that I think exists to meet offshore racing rules for boats that have roller furling, or perhaps cruisers with only a single headsail that can't be effectively shortened. In our case, I think a half-in reef on the 90% jib should provide decent reaching/running/steerage in winds to 50+.


The storm trysail is a real problem. With a stack pack, how do you set it? Inside the lazy jacks? Outside? How do you tack? As I look at our deck, there does not seem to be a decent lead for the traditional sheets (but could it lead to the boom end?). But with a serious duty main that reefs to the size of the trysail, is there even a point?


Between the two non-storm sails, (one, the other, or both), I think we can easily provide sails for winds to 50+.


Would you carry either storm sail aboard? And, before I dispose of them, does "having them aboard" meet any rules I might see in the future -- say an ARC (which this boat has done and may be the reason they exist).


Harry

Your sailmaker sounds good

If you were to build a new main ask him to modify the design for two reefs only

Big first reef then standard deep reef

Most booms and decks are not set up for three reefs

The third reef becomes tedious to rig

Two reefs work well The oversized first reef in not a big concern when cruising

Avoid full battens below the deep reef

storm sails are valuable , but seldom used

Tough call

[JPA Cate]

Most booms and decks are not set up for three reefs

.

Yes, we had to modify the boom. It was a morning's job to install the extra block, reave the line, and lead it aft. In the case of our present boat, she is a one-off, and the deck was already set up with a spare block and leads back to the cockpit.

We have found the third reef quite useful, when we needed it. Imho, it is an option to consider making it so that it is part of your regular reefing system, and not something you have to tie in when you're wet and scared.

I suppose that for some boats the 2 reefs only would work okay, but for a mainsail driven boat like this one, it is useful. This boat does not have a deep forefoot: there isn't much boat in the water at the knuckle. The two rollers give her a tendency for the bow to blow down.


Ann

[Paul L]

Harry,
I think your logic is fine. Modern sails, even partially fueled, are pretty strong vs what was available when books like Heavy Weather Sailing was written.. We have a solent setup. Boat came with a storm jib and a trysail. I removed the stormed jib when I went with a furler on the inner stay. The trysail is still onboard. It really would only get used if the main was trashed and had to be cut away. Main has 3 reefs.

You didn't mention your cruising plans, typical trade wind circumnavigation might be different than 5 Capes nonstop.

[sailingharry]

Paul,


We lust for an Outbound. But with our budget, we settled for the Saga. LOL.


Our cruising plans aren't 5 Capes! Our first summer (2021) will be the Down East Circle -- Erie to Lake Ontario, St. Lawrence (with Newfoundland, PEI, and Nova Scotia), and then home. Never more than 200 miles on a single passage, so should be easy(er) to plan for weather.


But the following summer we are contemplating (not a plan at this point) a passage to Europe. That's a bit more exciting, but still not horrendous (although I did Boston to Norway in July once, and have some real scary memories).