Downwind Sail for Ocean Race

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ka4wja

. . . So, I recommend a sail that you will actually use....whether in this summer's adventure or otherwise...

I thank everyone in this thread for the FANTASTIC input -- really -- I don't know where I could have gotten so much useful information, so quickly


I think what John has written here is persuasive.


I have used (much smaller) regular spinnakers but never used an assy.



From various comments from various people, it seems to me that:


1. Assy is much easier to handle, so will be usable with a small crew as well as a big one.

2. Assy is more versatile -- some people even use DDW with a pole, and can be used on a beam reach.


I am not specifically worried about DDW as opposed to a deep reach -- this is not buoy racing, but nearly 1000 miles of ocean. Since wind bends around coastlines, you always have more than random risk of DDW when you sail along a coast, as part of this route is, but I don't think it is PROBABLE that there will be much exactly DDW sailing. On the other hand, there is as significant chance of reaching, from close to broad.


My boat has modest SA/D (about 17) which is good for the kind of sailing I do, in the latitudes I do, and with carbon sails, we do really well as long as the wind is ahead of the beam, even in light wind. As long as wind is ahead of the beam, we do from 2/3 to 1 of the true wind speed, over a wide range of wind speed AWA. But lack of SA/D hurts us in light wind and wind abaft the beam. So the more I think about this, the more it seems to me that the assy is the right sail, a supercharger for any broad reach in light wind.



If I get into a DDW course I will either pole out the assy or just gybe from one efficient deep reach, to another on the other tack. A big conventional chute would surely be better for a DDW course but I think it makes sense to take the risk on the assy.


And the main thing is I will be able to use it for other purposes, whereas a concentional chute is likely to rot in the basement of one of my land homes.


We had a conventional chute for the previous boat, came with the boat, but in 25 years never used it once. But that's a little different case as that boat was a pig to sail in general, so we didn't go to much trouble sailing.

[a64pilot]

You asked about a code zero,
Now I’m no real sailor so take this with a grain of salt, but from my limited experience a Code Zero is a reaching sail, it will work downwind, but not as good as a Spinnaker, but it really shines in light winds reaching. However it’s going to take some work and money to be set up for one, but once set up, it’s an easy sail for even singlehanded use.
If apparent winds are from 40 to 180 and at or below 12 kts, I fly the Code Zero, it’s good for up to 20 and I left it up once until 22 kts.
From my just asking around, Mom and Pop cruisers often carry an Assy or even a Spinnaker, but never, ever use it, but as you aren’t a Mom and Pop cruiser and I believe almost always have a Crew I think you may actually use a real Spinnaker.

I only rarely see any light wind sails being used, and have never, ever seen a Spinnaker used on a cruising boat, not that my experience is typical I guess. But I think your the rare case that has enough hands on deck to actually use a Spinnaker, that would be my plan.

[Dockhead]

So I'm still looking.

I've decided on an A2 or something similar, but the only thing I've found seems a little small for my boat, luff length about 20 meters so about 5 feet or 1.5 meters less than my forestay length; 140m2 or about 1500 square feet. I think I need one of about 2000 square feet.

There is no time to have a new one made.

I've now seen videos from previous runs of this race, and saw boats going DDW in light wind, exactly the case I'm afraid of.

1500 square feet is about double the area of my yankee jib, so I guess that will be a boost. And maybe a benefit in that I can use it up to a higher wind speed.

I would think this would help me a lot in light wind any time the wind is abaft the beam -- the very point of sail my boat is weak in. I hope I will be able to pole it out for really deep angles, but I totally lack experience with A sails so I'm just guessing.

I hope that I will use it for cruising and surely I will anytime I have crew. I would think that even two up something like this would be reasonable to handle.

I keep looking for a little bigger one.

[GILow]

Rolly Tasker have practically every size of asym off-the-shelf, ready to go and very cheap.

Just saying. [emoji846]

[slug]

If you will fly from the stemhead , deduct height of bow pulpit

If you will use a sock to handle the sail deduct spi sock leader length

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by slug

If you will fly from the stemhead , deduct height of bow pulpit

If you will use a sock to handle the sail deduct spi sock leader length

OK, then. So maybe this one is the right luff length, but what about the area? 140m2 for a boat of 20 metric tonnes light ship displacement, 44,000 pounds, and in real life with full tanks probably 3 or 4 tonnes more than that?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by GILow

Rolly Tasker have practically every size of asym off-the-shelf, ready to go and very cheap.

Just saying. [emoji846]

I've written to them; thanks for the tip.

[GILow]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I've written to them; thanks for the tip.

https://www.rollytaskersailsaustrali...ical-spinnaker

Looks like a size 15 for your boat.

Different needs I know, but I went with two sizes smaller than my boat could take to increase the range of conditions I could safely use the sail.

But I sail solo and I NEVER race.

[sailah]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

So I'm still looking.

I've decided on an A2 or something similar, but the only thing I've found seems a little small for my boat, luff length about 20 meters so about 5 feet or 1.5 meters less than my forestay length; 140m2 or about 1500 square feet. I think I need one of about 2000 square feet.

There is no time to have a new one made.

I've now seen videos from previous runs of this race, and saw boats going DDW in light wind, exactly the case I'm afraid of.

1500 square feet is about double the area of my yankee jib, so I guess that will be a boost. And maybe a benefit in that I can use it up to a higher wind speed.

I would think this would help me a lot in light wind any time the wind is abaft the beam -- the very point of sail my boat is weak in. I hope I will be able to pole it out for really deep angles, but I totally lack experience with A sails so I'm just guessing.

I hope that I will use it for cruising and surely I will anytime I have crew. I would think that even two up something like this would be reasonable to handle.

I keep looking for a little bigger one.

How about this one? I've bought sails from these guys before, they usually take an aggressive best offer and I think their condition guide is fairly accurate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Asymmetrica...kAAOSwHOFeXEKL

Little smaller, but new

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Asymmetric-...gAAOSwU0tdg7xx

[Dockhead]

Can anyone tell from these dimensions, what the cut of these sails is?


Sail 1 Luff 20.27 Leech 15.54 Foot 9.45 1 oz cloth

Sail 2 Luff 19.84 Leech 18.49 Foot 8.63 1.2 oz cloth


And to compare with Rolly Tasker Size 14:


Luff 20.4 Leech 18.9 foot 11.85 1.5 oz cloth


Depending on the length of the snuffer leader, I guess I want luff length of about 20.5 (21.75 - .7 pulpit height - .8 ? leader length) or possibly a little less.


Sail 2 has a much shorter foot than Sail 1 -- which is what cut? Can anyone tell from this?

[muttnik]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

What do you guys think? Is anyone using a Parasailor or similar for racing?

I've been looking at these and spoke to both the parasailor people and oxley at Boot in January. Oxley are apparently using the old parasailor design for which the patent has just expired which is probably why the parasailor has a New! Improved! design (although they didn't mention the previous one being Old! and Rubbish! when trying to sell it to me at Southampton Boat show last year).

From the research I did I wouldn't be using one for serious racing with a full crew. The selling point is not light airs performance, it's stability and ease of use in a variety of wind conditions and angles. This is obviously not first-hand knowledge but no-one has replied to this question for a couple of days so I thought I'd throw it in.

Fortunately for me I don't do serious racing with a full crew so it's still something I'm looking at for short-handed long distance cruising but as a niche product it seems no-one on cruisersforum at least has had the opportunity to compare the different options in this space (new parasailor vs oxley vs wingaker):
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...or-230481.html

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailah

How about this one? I've bought sails from these guys before, they usually take an aggressive best offer and I think their condition guide is fairly accurate.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Asymmetrica...kAAOSwHOFeXEKL

Little smaller, but new

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Asymmetric-...gAAOSwU0tdg7xx

Thank you; those are hot tips. They say they don't ship internationally, but I wrote to them to ask anyway.

[sailah]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Thank you; those are hot tips. They say they don't ship internationally, but I wrote to them to ask anyway.

I'll happily act as your US/UK broker if that's a solution. I have a customer in Cheltenham I just shipped a 10kg box to via UPS air. Was about $300 if I recall. DHL is likely much cheaper.

With Nautical Donations, I have offered 50% of ask and they accepted.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by sailah

I'll happily act as your US/UK broker if that's a solution. I have a customer in Cheltenham I just shipped a 10kg box to via UPS air. Was about $300 if I recall. DHL is likely much cheaper.

With Nautical Donations, I have offered 50% of ask and they accepted.

That is very kind of you! I'll let you know. The first sail looks good and very cheap.

[Dockhead]

A lot of these used sails have sail numbers on them.


What can you do about that? I guess you have to sew a panel over them? Seems like a PITA.