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Rakuflames · 12-10-2011, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeehag

chlorine does not sterilize anything. it does not kill bacteria, there are many in hospital studies to that effect and i was privy to seeing these in my career. donot fool yourself.

Chlorine kills bacteria and virii. It's just that it doesn't always kill ALL of them, because surfaces have many very small imperfections that allow the critters to hide from the chlorine. Germs can even hide from autoclaving.

I typeset a textbook for dental hygienists. It was a real eye-opener.

hellosailor · 12-10-2011, 16:14

Gord, she's just got that hospital perspective on.

Our CDC refers to bleach "sanitizing" things. And in general it kills common critters like fecal coliform very nicely, but even for simple tasks like camping, bleach isn't good enough. It won't give a complete kill on giardia ("beaver fever") or cryptosporidium, and that's even when the dose is so high that you'd refuse to drink it.

Still...ignoring those and MRSA and clostridium difficile (both endemic in hospitals)...bleach makes a good way to make your environment, including porcelain toilet, way more sanitary. As the CDC would phrase it.

To sanitize a hospital, I suppose you'd really have to treat it as a Class IV biohazard lab. And you just know what kind of uproar that would cause. From the administrators, the insurers, and the undertakers union.

**GordMay** · 12-10-2011, 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeehag

chlorine does not sterilize anything. it does not kill bacteria, there are many in hospital studies to that effect and i was privy to seeing these in my career. donot fool yourself.

hellosailor: She’s just plain WRONG (in my highly informed, but not expert opinion), on this one!

BLEACH KILLS (most/all) GRAM POSITIVE BACTERIA, and many other harmful microorganisms.

If you (zeehag) have credible evidence otherwise, please present it.
Otherwise, do not misuse/abuse your very high credibility in misinforming those that (mostly, but NOT IN THIS CASE, rightfully) respect your informed opinion/expertise.

sdowney717 · 12-10-2011, 17:17

A concern about hospital acquired infections is seriously warranted, even if the staff uses copious amounts of bleach and other sanitizers. surfaces are easily made infectious again.

Long time ago I worked in a hospital lab as an MT. Sometimes we collect blood, I observed many phlebotomists going from patient to patient even those quarantined and using the rubber tourniquet on the arm without even using any alcohol. So your basically skin sharing whatever is on one patients skin to anothers by way of the latex tourniquet.
Also hand washing not done. Also some not wearing gloves when they should, nurses also. If your in the hospital be proactive for your own health benefit. They are very busy and stuff happens.

ty.gregory · 12-10-2011, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Gord, she's just got that hospital perspective on.

Our CDC refers to bleach "sanitizing" things. And in general it kills common critters like fecal coliform very nicely, but even for simple tasks like camping, bleach isn't good enough. It won't give a complete kill on giardia ("beaver fever") or cryptosporidium, and that's even when the dose is so high that you'd refuse to drink it.

TWO POINTS:

1) The only good fecal coliform is dead fecal coliform and don't even get me started on cryptosporidium!

2) I have found that bleach is actually delicious, albeit, something of an acquired taste.

As to "Beaver Fever"; what are the symptoms? Should I drink more bleach?

**sarafina** · 12-10-2011, 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdowney717

Long time ago I worked in a hospital lab as an MT.

That musta been a LONG time ago... like before 1985 or 1990?

Because now, in all the hospitals I have been in over the last decade, five at this point, and some for multiple visits, I have never been handled for blood work, or anything else really, with out gloves and a one use kit, tourniquet included...

Dame.n.Jess · 12-10-2011, 18:09

Wow, how far off topic can this get. it started out with smelly toilet and we have now covered methods for taking blood, large volume water-borne pest eradication, draining swimming pools & terrorism related raccoons.

LOL, This thread is worth reading simply for the bazaar tangents its darting off into.

Damien

peghall · 12-10-2011, 18:40

Yup...you did indeed kill the odor...for now. And if you keep on using bleach to kill it, you'll also kill all the rubber parts in your toilet and wipe out the head discharge hose's resistance to odor permeation...which can only be solved by replacing the hose.

And if you also decide to use bleach in a household toilet, you'll find out that, although it's not harmful to the bowl, bleach products that you put in the flush water tank will destroy the rubber ball and flapper valve in the flush water tank. Takes about 3 months. Ask me how I know this...and how I discovered that that the new piston style flapper valve has a rubber gasket.

So put the air valve back into the vented loop where it belongs...it's kinda needed there. And if it's manual toilet or one of the 370xxx series, you DID put the loop where it belongs--between the pump and the bowl, NOT inline between the thru-hull and the pump?

There's a MUCH better way to solve the intake sea water odor problem: tee the head intake line into the head sink drain line just above the thru-hull. This provides a safe source of clean fresh water to rinse all the sea water out of the WHOLE system--intake line, pump, channel in the bowl AND the discharge line--before the boat will sit (which is when the sea water stagnates and stinks). Last thing, after you've closed all the seacocks, fill the sink with clean fresh water...flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink.

Follow it with a weekly cupful of distilled white vinegar to prevent mineral buildup in the system. Do NOT leave it sitting in the bowl...flush it all the way through...and after an hour, follow that with a quart of clean FRESH water.

Sailor g · 12-10-2011, 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdowney717

bleach kills a lot of microorganisms.
Though it wont kill raccoon roundworm which is fairly deadly to humans and most raccoons are infectious.

CDC - Raccoons and Pools - Animals and Pools - Pools & Hot Tubs - Healthy Swimming & Recreational Water - Healthy Water

Yeah, but who is letting the racoons use the head? Ya gotta draw the line somewhere. 

peghall · 12-10-2011, 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor g

Yeah, but who is letting the racoons use the head? Ya gotta draw the line somewhere. 

sdowney717 · 13-10-2011, 02:28

Quote:

That musta been a LONG time ago... like before 1985 or 1990?

yes, 1983 I started there and worked up to 1998. There were no new blood collecting tourniquets for each patient.
Tourniquets stayed in the blood collection trays each phlebotomist had their own.
Maybe after I left they did this. Even HIV was not high on the radar screen when I first started, I recall procedures getting stricter in the mid 90's.
In the lab they started supplying clear plastic head visors as they were concerned when you open sample tubes, you create an aerosol. It was getting ridiculous IMO. If we were having vip visitors, the supervisors would come round and insist we wear them. And then funny thing is they look so comical and I was talking to one of them and he was joking with me and saying after we leave you can take them off. I used to work for Riverside which was bought by Smithkline which was then bought by Labcore. I have 2 nice pensions waiting for me when I reach the retirement age plus whatever SS will bring.

Bill Shuman · 13-10-2011, 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by peghall

There's a MUCH better way to solve the intake sea water odor problem: tee the head intake line into the head sink drain line just above the thru-hull. This provides a safe source of clean fresh water to rinse all the sea water out of the WHOLE system--intake line, pump, channel in the bowl AND the discharge line--before the boat will sit (which is when the sea water stagnates and stinks). Last thing, after you've closed all the seacocks, fill the sink with clean fresh water...flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink.

Great info.. does that mean that if you are living aboard and using the toilet every day then this shouldn't be necessary? Thanks.

-Bill

peghall · 13-10-2011, 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Shuman

Great info.. does that mean that if you are living aboard and using the toilet every day then this shouldn't be necessary? -Bill

Weeellll...that's kinda like asking if it's necessary to take baths if you don't play in the dirt.

And the answer to both questions is, maybe not every day, but when you OR the head plumbing need a bath, a bathtub or shower really comes in handy. Coastal water, even lakes and rivers, can be pretty skanky sometimes...and plumbing the head intake to share the head sink drain intake provides a safe source of clean fresh water to rinse out the system, add antifreeze or vinegar (a weekly dose to prevent mineral buildup), and doesn't really cost anything--just a tee or wye and a couple of hose clamps. In fact, some builders plumb this way to eliminate one hole in the boat and save the cost of a thru-hull and seacock. How often you flush out the system is up to you.

Bill Shuman · 13-10-2011, 06:41

Peggie,

The thing that confuses me is that if I flush the system with fresh water and an hour later (or maybe 8 hours later) I use the head, the fresh water is replaced with sea water again. Is that still beneficial?

Also, is adding vinegar to prevent mineral buildup more effective this way than just dumped in the bowl? I didn't know mineral buildup occurred in the water intake line.

I'm not challenging your opinion. I have your wonderful book and have used much of your advice. Thanks.