Disposing of Solid Waste From a Dessicating Toilet

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

Someone is acting like they don't pee in the shower!

More “whataboutism”

Originally Posted by SVTatia

You not only gain the space, but you eliminate a disgusting maintenance item and removed the smelly factor.
I see no reason of ever having a wet head on a boat again.

Fresh water flush, 18 years full time use, zero maintenance

Originally Posted by mvweebles

I like my theory - severe childhood trauma during potty training.

And taboo… look at the bidet discussions.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is bizarre. Who’s a “goodie two shoes”? No one I know chooses a composting head to be a “goodie.”

Many talk and post about it in a way which clearly is virtue signaling, which is so popular these days. But if they dump the urine overboard, they are actually hypocrites

Originally Posted by fxykty

But you can pee directly into the sea pretty much everywhere, including NDZs. The pee tank is treated just like the solids container when in NDZs: store on board until can dispose of in a toilet ashore (in the case of a pee tank) or overboard outside the NDZ.

You are correct, but unfortunately the urine from composting toilets gets dumped overboard, not saved for later safe disposal. This is why I call out the hypocrisy and virtue signaling.

Actually, I have nothing against composting toilets, nothing against flushed toilets, really don’t want anything to do with y’all’s toilets

[mvweebles]

I hate my compost head. Emptying the solid's bin isn't fun. It's heavy and awkward. Some of the reclaimed space is now occupied with bricks of coco coir that shed and make a mess. But I hated my finnecky and tempermental wet head system even more. My body's discharge system is pretty regular - my wet head system was not. My wet-head friends tell me the newer equipment is better. After 30-years of futzing with head systems, perhaps I stopped one year and one evolution too soon. Perhaps. I remember Jaguar cars being so beautiful yet notoriously unreliable. For 20-years, next year's model solved the reliability problems of last year's model.

While I agree that CH owners predominantly [illegally] dump urine overboard, it also follows that many/most wet-head owners discharge their holding tanks illegally. And CH owners predominantly dispose of their solid tailings in garbage. Saying that dumping 2-gals of pure urine overboard is different than discharging 70-gals of raw sewage is not 'whataboutism' or hypocrisy. It's common sense. Sure, both are illegal in the same way that driving 65mph in a 60mph zone is the same as driving 65mph in a 35mph zone.

Virtue signaling? Really?

[GordMay]

So called, Composting Toilets, do not actually compost anything.
Correctly composting human waste is a multi-step decomposition process, that usually takes six, to eighteen months.


Excerpted from “Nature’s Head” User Guide:

Originally Posted by Nature’sHead

”... The recommended procedure for disposing of the contents of the solid waste tank is placing it in a proper composting bin to allow it to fully decompose. When traveling in a boat or RV, this may not be practical. The contents of the solid waste tank may be safely placed into a conventional dumpster if it has been allowed to compost fully. When fully composted, the solid wastes may be used to fertilize non-ingestible plantings. Placing human waste compost on edible plants or vegetables is not recommended.

Full-time users have some special circumstances to deal with. Full-time use does not allow enough time for the solid wastes to compost. The most recent waste, although mixed with the already composted material, will not be decomposed. This also means that the fecal bacteria (present in fresh human wastes) may still be present. We recommend taking precautions such as the use of gloves if you may come into contact with waste material. It is advisable that you delay emptying the solid waste for 6-8 hours after the last use ...”

➥ https://natureshead.net/user_guide/

The ‘No Discharge’ [of untreated, or inadequately treated, sewage] rules do not differentiate between liquid and solid waste. If the waste is held onboard, it cannot be discharged overboard [legally], unless you are well offshore.
Some say that urine doesn’t count - that it’s sterile, and doesn’t harm the environment. Unfortunately, that’s not true. Urine is high in nitrogen, and a powerful fertilizer, that causes algae blooms.
But, whether or not you believe it’s harmful, it’s still illegal to dump it.

Vessel Sewage FAQs:

Originally Posted by USEPA

”... Composting toilets may be considered a Type III marine sanitation device by the U.S. Coast Guard ...
... The contents of both the liquid waste container and the compost chamber must be properly disposed of such that no overboard discharge occurs ...

➥ https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-...sked-questions

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Urine is high in nitrogen, and a powerful fertilizer, that causes algae blooms.
But, whether or not you believe it’s harmful, it’s still illegal to dump it

Agreed. Dumping urine is illegal even though peeing overboard is not. Just as driving 66mph in a 65mph violates the same speeding law as going 100mph in a school zone (though this also violates other laws).

Over 2-days, two people produce about 1-1/2 oz of nitrogen. A single 50-lb bag of lawn fertilizer contains about 26-lbs of nitrogen. You need 43 of them to fertilize an acre of sod. Or almost 18,000 times more nitrogen than the typical urine dump of a cruising couple.

But yes. It's illegal - no argument there. Strangely, allowing a half-ton of nitrogen to run-off into an adjacent river is not illegal. So here's the situation: A cruising boat on the Okeechobee cannot legally dump 1-1/2 oz of nitrogen, but the homeowners along the banks can legally run-off a half-ton each. You can call it 'whataboutism' but surely you can understand the difficulty of making this argument with credibility.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Many talk and post about it in a way which clearly is virtue signaling, which is so popular these days. But if they dump the urine overboard, they are actually hypocrites

Quote these “many”. I’ve yet to see ONE. People switch to a composter for many reasons, but I’ve yet to read here about doing so to be a “goodie.”

The reasons to switch to a composter are:

- Simpler, easier to maintain.
- (corollary) little can go wrong, and when it does, the fix is easy.
- Recovery of significant space on board smallish boats.
- Freedom from the limitations of needing to be pumped out.
- Cost (although this is bit of a wash).

No one talks about being a “goodie”, or “virtue signalling”, whatever that really means.

[nelly]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is bizarre. Who’s a “goodie two shoes”? No one I know chooses a composting head to be a “goodie.”

You don't make all your life choices so you can feel morally superior to your peers? You're missing out!

What's the accepted sarcasm emoji on this forum?

[capt jgw]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Quote these “many”. I’ve yet to see ONE. People switch to a composter for many reasons, but I’ve yet to read here about doing so to be a “goodie.”

The reasons to switch to a composter are:

- Simpler, easier to maintain.
- (corollary) little can go wrong, and when it does, the fix is easy.
- Recovery of significant space on board smallish boats.
- Freedom from the limitations of needing to be pumped out.
- Cost (although this is bit of a wash).

No one talks about being a “goodie”, or “virtue signalling”, whatever that really means.

The cost I think is less than a wash. I have a C-head, the cheapest dry head I could find, and it was $750. A lot of money for what you get, you could home build one for $50 or less. The other makes are a lot more. I could have put in a new wet head for around $200, but if I was replacing the tank and all the plumbing it would be closer to the $750. And of course that price is for the Jabsco head which appropriately is a POS.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The cost I think is less than a wash. I have a C-head, the cheapest dry head I could find, and it was $750. A lot of money for what you get, you could home build one for $50 or less. The other makes are a lot more. I could have put in a new wet head for around $200, but if I was replacing the tank and all the plumbing it would be closer to the $750. And of course that price is for the Jabsco head which appropriately is a POS.

Agreed. If the whole system is compared, any commercial composting head is cheaper. But most like to just look at the toilet part.

The other big cost saving for those in pump out land is the cost of that service. Most jurisdictions charge a fee, although some more enlightened areas provide it for free.

The “wash” I was thinking about is that while CH’s are inexpensive to operate and maintain, there are some costs. I paid, what? $60 a few years ago to buy enough coir to last me all this time. I had to replace the vent fan one year … that must of cost $20. So if you compare it to people just dumping at sea, you could argue my costs are more.

OK… I was really just trying to throw the standard head folks a bone ;-)

[dlj]

Originally Posted by capt jgw

The cost I think is less than a wash. I have a C-head, the cheapest dry head I could find, and it was $750. A lot of money for what you get, you could home build one for $50 or less. The other makes are a lot more. I could have put in a new wet head for around $200, but if I was replacing the tank and all the plumbing it would be closer to the $750. And of course that price is for the Jabsco head which appropriately is a POS.

I have to agree these heads seem pricey for what you get. I looked at home building one, but the OGO (the one I bought) was quite attractive looking and had the needed footprint for my head. Looking at all the bits and parts of the OGO, I'd have to say the price is not bad. Could you home build one? I guess, but it would be a huge amount of work to attain a similar finished looking project. I bet if you put all the bits and pieces together to build one, you wouldn't be far off the current asking price. It's a pretty complete kit...

However, cost was very much a concern on my first head as was time to install it. I was removing an old direct discharge head. So in my case to put in a marine head to current requirements would have entailed putting in a holding tank, a Y valve, a deck pump-out, a overboard pump for off-shore pump outs and all the plumbing that all of those need for installation. Both the cost and the time to do that installation were substantially more then simply buying an OGO and installing it. Coupled with the fact that where I sail, there are few pumpouts and I have to pay for them when using.

Once that first OGO head was installed and I was using it - I was frankly shocked at how well it worked, how easy it was to use, how little smell (I can't say none, but it's below my olfactory detection level), and just how flexible it's use structure truly is.

It was so nice for all the aspects that I care about, that I seriously looked into if I wanted to keep my aft head which was one of the modern electric push button heads. That installation was at the age where I was going to have to replace all the hoses as they had begun to smell. My whole aft cabin smelled like a latrine. Not terribly, but enough to notice - well above my olfactory detection level. Looking at having to change all that plumbing, and the fact that the hold tank pretty much occupied an entire aft locker - it was a simple decision to remove and replace with the OGO.

dj

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Quote these “many”. I’ve yet to see ONE. People switch to a composter for many reasons, but I’ve yet to read here about doing so to be a “goodie.”

The reasons to switch to a composter are:

- Simpler, easier to maintain.
- (corollary) little can go wrong, and when it does, the fix is easy.
- Recovery of significant space on board smallish boats.
- Freedom from the limitations of needing to be pumped out.
- Cost (although this is bit of a wash).

No one talks about being a “goodie”, or “virtue signalling”, whatever that really means.

Oh, I wasn’t addressing you in particular, just the whole industry and clientele in general. When you read anything about it, it always starts with virtue signaling about “sustainable sanitation”. That’s it, right there.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

All the goodie two shoes with compost toilets dump their pee overboard, like nitrogen pollution doesn’t exist.
https://www.epa.gov/nutrientpollution/issue

Very little urine dumped down a marina toilet, or a pumped out black water tank, that goes into a US waste water treatment plant, is going to remove nitrogen. Only 5-9% of US waste water treatment plants remove nitrogen.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...6._2.08.17.pdf

I read that about half of the nitrogen pollution in the NL is from waste water. What was NOT stated in the article was how much of the waste water from non Dutch sources.

Later,
Dan

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by odonnellryan

You don't make all your life choices so you can feel morally superior to your peers? You're missing out!

What's the accepted sarcasm emoji on this forum?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by dannc

Very little urine dumped down a marina toilet, or a pumped out black water tank, that goes into a US waste water treatment plant, is going to remove nitrogen. Only 5-9% of US waste water treatment plants remove nitrogen.

https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...6._2.08.17.pdf

I read that about half of the nitrogen pollution in the NL is from waste water. What was NOT stated in the article was how much of the waste water from non Dutch sources.

Later,
Dan

See, that is whataboutism. We are not talking about others, we are talking about boats with composting toilets who dump their urine overboard, instead of saving it all up in bottles or whatever, like the dried out poo.

[nelly]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

See, that is whataboutism. We are not talking about others, we are talking about boats with composting toilets who dump their urine overboard, instead of saving it all up in bottles or whatever, like the dried out poo.

Taken from merriam-webster.com:

: the act or practice of responding to an accusation of wrongdoing by claiming that an offense committed by another is similar or worse
The exchange is indicative of a rhetorical strategy known as whataboutism, which occurs when officials implicated in wrongdoing whip out a counter-example of a similar abuse from the accusing country, with the goal of undermining the legitimacy of the criticism itself.
—Olga Khazan
By whataboutism I mean the way any discussion can be short-circuited by saying "but what about x???" where x is usually something that's not really equivalent but is close enough to turn the conversation into mush.
—Touré
also : the response itself
They accomplish it by muddying the waters and distracting from international criticisms with whataboutisms such as telling the world that there's nothing exceptional about America.
—Alex Zeldin
called also (chiefly British) whataboutery

However, I don't think it is whataboutism to put things in context and to use fair comparisons, as long as you're not doing so to completely justify your actions in isolation - or being a zealot.

For example, if your choice is between action X and action Y, and action Y has less impact than action X, it is not hypocritical to suggest that you're doing what you can by taking action Y, and suggesting it is better than action X.

At least, I think if you did suggest this is whataboutism, you are reducing the meaning of the word.

Not saying that applies here.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

See, that is whataboutism. We are not talking about others, we are talking about boats with composting toilets who dump their urine overboard, instead of saving it all up in bottles or whatever, like the dried out poo.

I'm not understanding this particular logic - just because someone decides to use a composting head does not equate with them dumping overboard anymore than someone with a standard marine head dumping their black water tank overboard.

Dumping with either system where you aren't permitted is equally irresponsible. I'm not sure why this has to be in a thread about using a composting head.

It seems to me the advice should be - in the composting heads, you will have X numbers of days with the urine collector, you may wish to purchase a second (or third or...) to cover your sailing needs....

So from what I'm reading, according to you, all folks that go to composting are "goodie two shoes", use "whataboutisms", and perform blatant known illegal acts.

The term "stereotyping" seems appropriate here.

dj