Adapter for US propane to EU tanks or fills

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Although I don't plan to cover a lot of different areas, at least initially, this sounds like the easiest, most flexible option. Seems like all I will need is a hose attached to my US system, cut the end and use a double ended hose barb to connect to whichever European system I can find.



Since the bottles in Europe seem to have the regulator attached then I'llplan to bypass my US regulator and connect directly to my shutoff solenoid.



Or just surrender, admit technology won and use a generator and electric hot plate.

Yes I would use bottle based regulators and just plumb in to the low pressure gas line via a flexible pipe. This will easily allow you to move bottle types with relative ease. This is especially true for areas where bottle based regulator bottles are common

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Yes I would use bottle based regulators and just plumb in to the low pressure gas line via a flexible pipe. This will easily allow you to move bottle types with relative ease. This is especially true for areas where bottle based regulator bottles are common

After considering all the options, at least as well as my total confusion in the multitude of connectors, tanks, and fittings, this seems like the plan. Now to make sure I bring a hose (or two) with the proper connection to my low pressure side.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Be aware that the QCC1 fittings are safer. They are designed to melt and shut off in a fire, and have excess flow checks. And they are easier to connect and disconnect. You give that up with the POLs.

I have to disagree with this statement. QCC fittings are not safer - they do not seal as well as POL fittings. That tiny leak is OK for a BBQ out in the open but in a boat's gas locker it is not.

With a QCC fitting the tank valve must be closed when not in use. Most boat owners do not do this - they use the electric gas valve to turn the gas on and off. The only acceptable connection is with a wrench tightened POL fitting. The QCC is more of a marketing ploy than an improvement. It exists to make it easier for people with no mechanical skills to change tanks.

I know this from personal experience from when the OPD valves were first introduced. I will never use a QCC again.

[CarinaPDX]

When setting out to go cruising I think the best approach is to buy a long propane cable, cut it in half, then one half will attach to the regulator and accept the local tank fitting and the other half can use that local tank fitting to make a transfer hose between local and U.S. tanks (not really recommended but sometimes desperation makes cruisers do things they shouldn't). With a pigtail from the regulator it is simple to buy local tank fittings, and you may end up acquiring quite a few.

The warning I would make is that your stove be CE certified. If it is an older U.S. stove (and maybe even current) it may have been designed for propane only, and for delivery at our pressure standard. EU delivery pressure for propane is a bit different, and of course butane pressures are a lot different. CE approval requires that stoves operate properly at all three pressures, with propane, butane, or mixtures. Some of the U.S. stoves based on RV designs can actually melt the burners with pure butane or even mixtures. This is not just a rumor - I have seen the results with my own eyes. I also had a long talk with a Calor Gas manager at the Southampton boat show years ago. It seems when they first starting importing Force 10 stoves there were problems from overheating (before the CE approvals), which were fixed but did make the point. Not all burners and regulators can work with all gases, so pay attention.

Greg

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

When setting out to go cruising I think the best approach is to buy a long propane cable, cut it in half, then one half will attach to the regulator and accept the local tank fitting and the other half can use that local tank fitting to make a transfer hose between local and U.S. tanks (not really recommended but sometimes desperation makes cruisers do things they shouldn't). With a pigtail from the regulator it is simple to buy local tank fittings, and you may end up acquiring quite a few.

The warning I would make is that your stove be CE certified. If it is an older U.S. stove (and maybe even current) it may have been designed for propane only, and for delivery at our pressure standard. EU delivery pressure for propane is a bit different, and of course butane pressures are a lot different. CE approval requires that stoves operate properly at all three pressures, with propane, butane, or mixtures. Some of the U.S. stoves based on RV designs can actually melt the burners with pure butane or even mixtures. This is not just a rumor - I have seen the results with my own eyes. I also had a long talk with a Calor Gas manager at the Southampton boat show years ago. It seems when they first starting importing Force 10 stoves there were problems from overheating (before the CE approvals), which were fixed but did make the point. Not all burners and regulators can work with all gases, so pay attention.

Greg

I thought propane burned hotter than butane? I would have thought the whole melting thing would happen the other way around, using propane in a butane system?

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I thought propane burned hotter than butane? I would have thought the whole melting thing would happen the other way around, using propane in a butane system?

I think the problem is that propane burners and regulators deliver too much butane gas. The burner I saw literally melted enough for the edge to drop down 90 degrees.

Greg

[Anders]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I thought propane burned hotter than butane? I would have thought the whole melting thing would happen the other way around, using propane in a butane system?

Butane definitely burns hotter. A standard bulkhead regulator in the EU is set to deliver 30 mbar so that it can be used with both propane and butane while the old bottle top propane regulators are set at 37 mbar.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

When setting out to go cruising I think the best approach is to buy a long propane cable, cut it in half, then one half will attach to the regulator and accept the local tank fitting and the other half can use that local tank fitting to make a transfer hose between local and U.S. tanks (not really recommended but sometimes desperation makes cruisers do things they shouldn't). With a pigtail from the regulator it is simple to buy local tank fittings, and you may end up acquiring quite a few.

The warning I would make is that your stove be CE certified. If it is an older U.S. stove (and maybe even current) it may have been designed for propane only, and for delivery at our pressure standard. EU delivery pressure for propane is a bit different, and of course butane pressures are a lot different. CE approval requires that stoves operate properly at all three pressures, with propane, butane, or mixtures. Some of the U.S. stoves based on RV designs can actually melt the burners with pure butane or even mixtures. This is not just a rumor - I have seen the results with my own eyes. I also had a long talk with a Calor Gas manager at the Southampton boat show years ago. It seems when they first starting importing Force 10 stoves there were problems from overheating (before the CE approvals), which were fixed but did make the point. Not all burners and regulators can work with all gases, so pay attention.

Greg

Certainly in Europe and for sure in places like Ireland, forget about using your own tanks. Forget about high pressure bottle to on board regulators. Simply terminate your gas low pressure side infeed in your gas locker in a length of conventional orange flexible low pressure gas bottle hose. Then use local bottles and their associated regulators , these will be widely available in the particular country and the bottles will be distributed locally , the local regulator will be cheap

If you plan to visit many countries then about the only standard is the 3-3.8 kg camping gaz bottle. Greece uses a local version ands it’s cheap around €10.

Other countries camping gaz can be expensive

Trying to fill weird non local bottles is an excercise in frustration as is decanting as many bottle systems use on bottle regulators. Humping your boats cylinders around from place to place gets old fast.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Anders

Butane definitely burns hotter. A standard bulkhead regulator in the EU is set to deliver 30 mbar so that it can be used with both propane and butane while the old bottle top propane regulators are set at 37 mbar.

Propane burns slightly hotter then butane ( around 10 degrees ) , but butanes calorific value is considerably better then propane which is why it’s used in cooking ( 126MJ/m3 versus 95.8MJ/m3.) , hence for a given amount of gas , butane is much more effective then propane.

The problem is worse with the new standard combined 30 mg European regulator , before propane was regulated higher to compensate for the lower caloric value and or the jets were slightly bigger.

Hence feeding butane into cheap propane appliances can damage them , I went through a burner on my American bbq that way. , I then had a stronger one built locally

Unless you have low temperatures butane is a better system for cooking then propane and it’s why it’s near universal in Europe.

[Anders]

Not sure of the current situation but UK Calor propane bottles has been in short supply and retailers told to exchange bottles but not sell any new bottles.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Anders

Not sure of the current situation but UK Calor propane bottles has been in short supply and retailers told to exchange bottles but not sell any new bottles.

This is still the current situation

[skipmac]

Went to the boat yesterday to check my installation and consider options. See the photo. Due to the size and shape of the propane locker the regulator is installed on the wall and caulked into place to keep any leaks from spilling into the boat.

This will make it a bit of a pain to remove the existing regulator and connect a European tank with hose and integrated regulator to my system. Much easier to disconnect the hose leading to the solenoid in front of the regulator and connect a European tank to the solenoid. BUT

Seems like many/most/all European tanks have hoses with integrated regulators so

1. Are there hoses and connections without regulators that I can connect to my system?

2. If not then would my system work if I connected the low pressure from the European regulator to the input of my US regulator or would I have to remove my regulator from the system?

[goboatingnow]

Low pressure to low pressure doesn’t tend to work as the regulator won’t function properly.

“ some European cylinders will have high pressure taps ie external regulators. These are normally only propane types. So in places like Ireland you’ll not be able to use the normal domestic distribution system to get suitable bottles. As an aside the 3.8 kg small propane bottle is very hard to source.

The other option is the 3.5kg camping gaz bottle as you can get a high pressure tap for this ( you’ll to go to a specialist for this ) this bottle is available as a price through camping shops etc

In the U.K. the blue calor 4 kg cylinder is high pressure again you will a converter , it’s a 21mm left hand thread system it’s not POL as it’s butane

In Ireland and the U.K. the propane ( red ) bottles are the same and you will need a U.K. mating POL , the main issue is these cylinders are not distributed using normal domestic methods so you’ll be travelling to builders yards , hire equipment depots or plumbing supplies

[goboatingnow]

To summarise

For high pressure bottles
Small propane U.K. POL fitting , distributed via commercial distributors small propane bottles ( ie <11kg) can be hard to get

Small butane , camping gaz 3.5kg expensive available through chandlers and camping stores etc , specialist tap needed ( as most places just sell the screw on regulator ) but bottle is available in many countries ( at widely differing prices )

( alternative is calor 4.5 kg butane bottle is different size in U.K. versus Ireland but fitting is the same 21mm left have thread , specialist take off fitting needed as normally the regulator is screwed on to the bottle )

All the rest will be available but are set up for on bottle regulators

[Anders]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Went to the boat yesterday to check my installation and consider options. See the photo. Due to the size and shape of the propane locker the regulator is installed on the wall and caulked into place to keep any leaks from spilling into the boat.

This will make it a bit of a pain to remove the existing regulator and connect a European tank with hose and integrated regulator to my system. Much easier to disconnect the hose leading to the solenoid in front of the regulator and connect a European tank to the solenoid. BUT

Seems like many/most/all European tanks have hoses with integrated regulators so

1. Are there hoses and connections without regulators that I can connect to my system?

2. If not then would my system work if I connected the low pressure from the European regulator to the input of my US regulator or would I have to remove my regulator from the system?

Why do you want to bypass your bulkhead regulator? Just get a pigtail that connects the bottle to your bulkhead regulator and problem solved.