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Old 01-06-2022, 13:44   #31
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

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Originally Posted by grantmc View Post
Oh yeah, anytime, anywhere, especially after a few prunes, baked beans, or onions to name a few.

That's all I can offer although I ain't silent myself.

Sailing ironic since iron invention of sail.

In past maybe skiffs were low volume full keel with aid of centreboard and crew to rotate larger rigs but now maybe best inshore vessels are deep short keel of shallow keelson. Yet boats should float to get around without running aground.
Yet now, better for offshore usage keel less full keel of shallow draft are enjoyed for exploration inshore because running aground probably just helping knock off a barnacle Yet coastal skiffs are preferable by many for passage maybe thanks to reduced risk weather watching??

We short steep too. Ain't fetch of a great lake though. Heavy wind ain't always storm.. gusty makes a difference.
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Old 01-06-2022, 14:11   #32
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Head East from the Great Lakes in Winter....when you get to the N Atlantic you"ve found a motherload of heavy weather!
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Old 01-06-2022, 14:18   #33
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

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Originally Posted by Donnybrook View Post
.


...

My goal is to understand what an angry ocean is really like as I think about my next boat--currently have a Catalina 34. I want to experience conditions that people think you need a "blue water" boat for.

I've sailed several Chicago-Mac races (including several as skipper) and experienced 12'+ very-steep (6 second) waves, severe thunderstorms (70+ knot gusts for short duration) and sustained 50 knot winds so I have 300+ mile mulit-day passage experience.

...
Most of the discussion of "Blue Water Boats" among cruisers is just silly. Most cruisers will never even encounter what you have already experienced on the Great Lakes...unless they dont even look at a forecast.
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:22   #34
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Thanks for responses. Theyíre very helpful. To summarize what Iíve heard:
  • A gale with 20í seas is to be avoided at all costs, even for training purposes. The experience you get from less severe weather applies to survival experiences.
  • If I can handle a Great Lakes storm, I can handle an ocean storm.
  • A great way to get the type of experience Iím looking for is fringe season deliveries or ocean races.
  • Other programs besides John Kretschmer's include 59 Degrees North and Ocean Sailing Expeditions
  • Belizesailor summarized things well: Most of the discussion of "Blue Water Boats" among cruisers is just silly. Most cruisers will never even encounter what you have already experienced on the Great Lakes...unless they donít even look at a forecast.
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:46   #35
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Volunteer on a delivery that's going through the right area I suppose. People post needing delivery crew all the time. Return deliveries from Hawaii to the PNW after the Trans Pac maybe. It can be a cold wet slog in gale winds often.
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:55   #36
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

For the life of me, I can't understand why someone would want to " experience" a big storm at sea.

Let me give you a real life experience.

A bad storm is not a one hour event. It can...and will ....last for days.

You will get tossed around non-stop for all this time and will be exhausted to the point of being numb.
It will likely be raining, with thunder and lighting, and you'll be in the cockpit drenched to your soul.
At night, you won't see the wave that is going to hit you, you will just hear it.
There will be waves breaking over the boat, constantly, and you will have to lash yourself into the cockpit so as to not get washed off.

Eating will be next to impossible as going below would mean opening the companion way risking a wave going below.
Waves will find it's way inside, thru' dorade vents, anchor lockers, etc.
Anything that is not tied down or firmly located inside the boat will find it's way to the cabin sole. EVERYTHING will be wet. Salt water wet.

Sleeping will be impossible, you might get away with a few catnaps from pure exhaustion.

Personal body functions will pose a massive problem. I will spare you the details.
Any and everything on deck that is not triple lashed down will be gone.
You will likely be 100's and 100's of miles from any shore, any shipping.
In other words you will be totally alone. Though you might pray for deliverance, none will come.
If you are the captain, you will have to ensure the safety of your crew, including medical situations.

You will likely have a storm drogue out....or should have...

Did I miss anything ??? Oh yeah, I don't care how brave you might think you are, you will be scared and frightened and will be wondering...what in the world was I thinking ?
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:58   #37
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

I'm thinking that the biggest difference in ocean sailing and that on a large lake is proximity to safety if things unexpectedly go sideways. Where I sit the forecasted weather is taken with a grain of salt. Every headland and bay will give a variation on the forecast and given we live where the Gulf stream meets the Labrador current and any meteorologists considers that a nightmare.

In trying to get my boat home last year I ran into seas of about nine metres. Forecast had called for 2-3 metres. We were near shore and decided to head back and not spend the next eight hours being beaten to crap.
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Old 04-06-2022, 08:25   #38
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnybrook View Post
Thanks for responses. Theyíre very helpful. To summarize what Iíve heard:
  • A gale with 20í seas is to be avoided at all costs, even for training purposes. The experience you get from less severe weather applies to survival experiences.
  • If I can handle a Great Lakes storm, I can handle an ocean storm.
  • A great way to get the type of experience Iím looking for is fringe season deliveries or ocean races.
  • Other programs besides John Kretschmer's include 59 Degrees North and Ocean Sailing Expeditions
  • Belizesailor summarized things well: Most of the discussion of "Blue Water Boats" among cruisers is just silly. Most cruisers will never even encounter what you have already experienced on the Great Lakes...unless they donít even look at a forecast.
Follow the Vendee Globe solo nonstop around the world race that departs France 11/10/2024. Many lessons can be learned about man, machine, and operating in the worst of conditions for months at a time. Machines and sailors do break.
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Old 04-06-2022, 10:17   #39
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
For the life of me, I can't understand why someone would want to " experience" a big storm at sea.

Let me give you a real life experience.

A bad storm is not a one hour event. It can...and will ....last for days.

You will get tossed around non-stop for all this time and will be exhausted to the point of being numb.
It will likely be raining, with thunder and lighting, and you'll be in the cockpit drenched to your soul.
At night, you won't see the wave that is going to hit you, you will just hear it.
There will be waves breaking over the boat, constantly, and you will have to lash yourself into the cockpit so as to not get washed off.

Eating will be next to impossible as going below would mean opening the companion way risking a wave going below.
Waves will find it's way inside, thru' dorade vents, anchor lockers, etc.
Anything that is not tied down or firmly located inside the boat will find it's way to the cabin sole. EVERYTHING will be wet. Salt water wet.

Sleeping will be impossible, you might get away with a few catnaps from pure exhaustion.

Personal body functions will pose a massive problem. I will spare you the details.
Any and everything on deck that is not triple lashed down will be gone.
You will likely be 100's and 100's of miles from any shore, any shipping.
In other words you will be totally alone. Though you might pray for deliverance, none will come.
If you are the captain, you will have to ensure the safety of your crew, including medical situations.

You will likely have a storm drogue out....or should have...

Did I miss anything ??? Oh yeah, I don't care how brave you might think you are, you will be scared and frightened and will be wondering...what in the world was I thinking ?
You are correct. This even applies for professional seamen. I've been out there in large ships thinking how good those on shore had it. Throw in low to freezing temperatures and everything gets even more unbearable.
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Old 04-06-2022, 10:29   #40
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Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 85
Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by MicHughV View Post
For the life of me, I can't understand why someone would want to " experience" a big storm at sea.

Let me give you a real life experience.

A bad storm is not a one hour event. It can...and will ....last for days.

You will get tossed around non-stop for all this time and will be exhausted to the point of being numb.
It will likely be raining, with thunder and lighting, and you'll be in the cockpit drenched to your soul.
At night, you won't see the wave that is going to hit you, you will just hear it.
There will be waves breaking over the boat, constantly, and you will have to lash yourself into the cockpit so as to not get washed off.

Eating will be next to impossible as going below would mean opening the companion way risking a wave going below.
Waves will find it's way inside, thru' dorade vents, anchor lockers, etc.
Anything that is not tied down or firmly located inside the boat will find it's way to the cabin sole. EVERYTHING will be wet. Salt water wet.

Sleeping will be impossible, you might get away with a few catnaps from pure exhaustion.

Personal body functions will pose a massive problem. I will spare you the details.
Any and everything on deck that is not triple lashed down will be gone.
You will likely be 100's and 100's of miles from any shore, any shipping.
In other words you will be totally alone. Though you might pray for deliverance, none will come.
If you are the captain, you will have to ensure the safety of your crew, including medical situations.

You will likely have a storm drogue out....or should have...

Did I miss anything ??? Oh yeah, I don't care how brave you might think you are, you will be scared and frightened and will be wondering...what in the world was I thinking ?
This is why I'd rather a 'slow' boat.
they handle beautifully and if caught out they'll hold a sock anchor much better. (No experience with a parachute)

Coastal cruisers aka fast flat vessels need lots more crew than fuller keelers and simply if pace is not maintainable they are open to a flooding or a beat.
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Old 04-06-2022, 11:01   #41
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retirement home View Post
This is why I'd rather a 'slow' boat.
they handle beautifully and if caught out they'll hold a sock anchor much better. (No experience with a parachute)

Coastal cruisers aka fast flat vessels need lots more crew than fuller keelers and simply if pace is not maintainable they are open to a flooding or a beat.
Sheer nonsense.
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Old 04-06-2022, 13:34   #42
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Catalina 34 must be a beautiful yacht..

Experiencing without experiencing another way 1 can enjoy heavy weather ocean sailing.
Oceans are huge. Depth, fetch and coordination of cycles.
Being in a calm Lee water whilst standing ashore admiring ferocity is my ideal too.
We learn our Webbs as best we can. Visibility and tiredness change things alot.

During quarantine I was lucky enough to goto Tasmania. Locals showed me an easy way to read weather, I asked about coves, lagoons, harbours and entries. A couple on map look nice but don't work.

Learning to avoid storms helps Learning to use them for sailing. Eg. Learning to avoid soon becomes Learning to recognise their fronts which leads to a decent look thus site reduction. On reduction is fun, if breakage, calm will follow. Still wary but.. be nice to mother Nature; she can destroy planets as was past prior Homoerectus and Neanderthal.
Old Lady Gale is strong, Father Wind is lovely.

Our cruiser was thin; laying in bunk, lie could see outer world through fibre glass and gel coat.
Nowadays, I'm guessing I'm same as you.. wanting practice incase survival requirements catch a storm.
Our practice ground includes a shelf of many miles on a both direction reach that moves spring energy from guaranteed 12 fathom depth to near 4 fathom. Wave.
Soft currents are in, out and can hold up or make loose. Tide.
Wind is a fairly dominant direction.
Helps coordinate that on a nice gulf crossing. Hoping for something thicker with offshore sails if I win manageability to do same ol' plus open up some nice same ol' yet shelfs of much greater depth

I always keep plot as best I can, incase Webb a thorough mess. The 4 props of Queen Mary breached at Port Phillip Bay Webb. Wasn't a storm, was swell versus tide. Wind did knot matter.
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Old 04-06-2022, 13:42   #43
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
Sheer nonsense.
I believe you

I bet you can tune better though.

The shallow keelson are vulnerable without speed because waves go up and come down. Such is tiresome to generate such in lumpy conditions whereas natural is a fuller keel.

That plus sheer keel if beam to.
Sheered some. Watched others goto sheep also.
I don't care. It's your life's and your risks.
Please understand education such to benefit from pros and cons. Watch the front and hit them back if wanting some larger energies. Been a pleasure
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Old 04-06-2022, 14:12   #44
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

I’ve done deliveries and had more then my fair share of Atlantic storms , there is no doubt the experience is extremely useful even if largely it convinces you not to sail in these conditions. IVe had two survival storms in the deep Atlantic. Very difficult to translate your experience as a lot depends on crew, the boat , what does break or doesn’t etc.

My comments

* you’re much too busy to be scared. , after all you must manage the boat , it’s all you have

* modern clothing is not too bad at keeping you dry , dry is a relatively term of course.

* modern yachts stay surprising dry even when submerged for a few mins , !! Unlike lesky teakys of old. Yes some water gets in but not as much as you’d think.

* beleive you me when you come off watch you’ll sleep !,

* drogues slow modern yachts too much. 300 feet of a line in a loop astern is more then enough to steady the stern and minimise broaching. Modern hull forms are much better hydrodynamically


* a big spade rudder is the only thing to have in a storm, control is everything

* boats with expensive hand built teak interiors make some racket , due to all the squeaking , modern boats are often quieter below , surprisingly

* the personal resilience of crew comes to mean a lot. Essentially people need to keep their sh1t together etc.

* chocolate keeps the crew fed !!
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Old 04-06-2022, 16:38   #45
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnybrook View Post
Thanks for responses. Theyíre very helpful. To summarize what Iíve heard:
  • A gale with 20í seas is to be avoided at all costs, even for training purposes. The experience you get from less severe weather applies to survival experiences.
  • If I can handle a Great Lakes storm, I can handle an ocean storm.
  • A great way to get the type of experience Iím looking for is fringe season deliveries or ocean races.
  • Other programs besides John Kretschmer's include 59 Degrees North and Ocean Sailing Expeditions
  • Belizesailor summarized things well: Most of the discussion of "Blue Water Boats" among cruisers is just silly. Most cruisers will never even encounter what you have already experienced on the Great Lakes...unless they donít even look at a forecast.
Having raced more then a few Chicago and Bayview Mac's I have to say Great Lakes sailing and ocean sailing are different. Not saying the Great Lakes can't be rough as hell and deadly but the power of the ocean after days of F7-8 feels heavier.

You might try sailing with Ryan on Libre or Nathan and Vivian on Ultima for some offshore passages. John, I think, is doing an Atlantic circle right now and is usually booked. As he should be, he is very knowledgeable and experienced.
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