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31-05-2022, 16:46
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Chicago
Boat: Catalina 34
Posts: 65
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How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
What's the best way for an experienced Great Lakes sailor to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience? I'd like to experience 20'+ waves and gale force winds in the ocean.
My goal is to understand what an angry ocean is really like as I think about my next boat--currently have a Catalina 34. I want to experience conditions that people think you need a "blue water" boat for.
I've sailed several Chicago-Mac races (including several as skipper) and experienced 12'+ very-steep (6 second) waves, severe thunderstorms (70+ knot gusts for short duration) and sustained 50 knot winds so I have 300+ mile mulit-day passage experience.
I like the John Kretschmer Sailing program but am looking for less time commitment and cost. Bad sailing weather seems rare when you're looking for it and have to plan travel time to get to it.
Thanks in advance for your ideas!
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31-05-2022, 17:05
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 3,508
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Not many people go looking for heavy weather. The danger in doing so is that 20' waves and gale force wind is pretty straightforward to deal with. But it can quickly and unexpectedly get much worse.
The fastest, surest way, maybe go down to the USVI and wait for a Hurricane, and sail around it. If you succeed, you will stay away from the really bad conditions, and get what you are looking for.
Less sure, but more sane, cross an ocean at higher latitudes. New Zealand to South America or similar.
And even less sure, try to get on some deliveries. Owners often hire a captain to deliver a boat during the season that owner doesn't want to do it.
The conditions you have described having been in are more than what someone with decent weather forecasting sailing in the proper season would ever expect.
__________________
-Warren
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31-05-2022, 17:46
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Hunnter Legend 37.5
Posts: 1,012
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Try 59 degrees north. Andy Schell, et al. But.... He will not knowingly sail into gale force, but when you're on a long ocean passage it's going to happen. That is an amazing outfit to go sailing with! I have sailed in a rally they organized and ran. I follow his podcast. Superior sailor!
Another thing you could do is join the quarterdeck which is part of the 59° North. They are very detailed discussions on that group.
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31-05-2022, 18:35
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: home town Wellington, NZ and Savusavu Fiji
Boat: Reinke S10 & Raven 26
Posts: 1,423
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Real Southern Ocean Expedition: Link: : 15 or so Days on Silver Fern a 72ft Cutter Rigged Birdsall design.
Campbell Island is at 52 degrees south (the screaming fifties).
To do this trip you need a big kahunas and a strong stomach.
Crew meet up Bluff (port of Invercargill), NZ ready for departure 13 February (our Summer) but still very very serious seas down south in Summer.
__________________
Grant Mc
The cure for everything is salt water: sweat, tears or the sea. Yeah right, I wish.
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31-05-2022, 19:28
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: KH 49x, Custom
Posts: 1,765
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
With your experience in those waves, you'll not be overly impressed with gale force winds in the ocean. I'm assuming you were "captaining" the boat, of course.
The following assumes we're talking about any of the Catalina line of boats over 32 feet.
Seriously, I've sailed a gale in Lake Huron, and another in Lake Erie. Those waves were far more dangerous than what I've experienced crossing the Atlantic in 40 knot winds. Sailing a gale in the Ocean will not be an issue with your experience. 40 knots in the ocean isn't too bad in comparison, (just don't go up wind) as long as there's no current. It's tiring, but nothing like the Great lakes in a gale.
A catalina 34 is going to take you to any of the Milk run destinations. Water tankage will be your biggest concern. Consider that for your next boat.
There's no PERFECT boat, only the boat you're happy to go in. Make sure you have room to store enough food and water for the number of crew, and days expected at sea. If your boat can hold that much, then you're good to go. I've seen much less able craft handle some nasty stuff.
I took at SS35, (20 gallons water, 15 gallons fuel) single handed, several times from Canada to the Bahamas, and once to Trinidad and back. Don't listen to the naysayers. Be sure you know how to handle your boat (again, assuming a Catalina), and that it can hold your stores, and safety gear. The rest just takes patience.
I can't think of any Catalina larger than 32 feet I wouldn't take offshore.
Good luck in your search for a gale offshore. I can't help you there; we don't take crew.
Cheers.
Paul.
__________________
If you can dream it; with grit, you can do it.
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31-05-2022, 20:23
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#6
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 85
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Buy a submarine and enjoy calm sailing??
Can you make wind during calm yet? To create your own pressure system during hanging tails might help with reflexes??
We avoid heavy as best we can. On backs of storms the full length keels might depart harbour prior the tapered edges but even reduced is hectic enough and if trouble finds them they'll have calm soon to... um..
Whether family's like familiar weather.. umm. She an old lady that's been around many times and polite argument can get fierce as you have known. Be gentle I guess. We watch the systems and they genuinely move like cogs.. unfortunate here is maybe each decade or 2 we get a big high slip and spin something up fast. About 1/2 hour notice prior a few hours of glass top and then ohh ship.
Best avoided in my opinion. Steady systems of Gale are nicer, lower energy than some big storms but plenty of excess to spill or point with.
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31-05-2022, 20:44
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Swansea, MA
Boat: CLC Skerry
Posts: 260
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Donnybrook, having sailed pretty extensively in both the Great Lakes and the Atlantic, I can assure you that you don't really need the experience of ocean storms if you know how to handle a gale on the lakes. As you noted, Great Lakes storm waves are short, steep and hit you hard and fast. Not to mention the weather on the lakes that can change in less than a minute from five knots to thirty five or more. I think you'll find ocean storms to be less stressful and more slow to develop, and while ocean waves and swells can be larger, in my experience they are more predictable. I would not let your lack of ocean experience deter you in the least from heading out to sea. You passed the test, and got the extra credit, on Lake Michigan.
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31-05-2022, 21:00
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Annapolis, MD, USA
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Bahia, 46'
Posts: 30
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Look for crew positions, either island hopping the eastern Caribbean in Dec - Feb, or an Atlantic crossing. May not get gale force winds. Likely to get some open water heavy weather.
I've done both, and the highest winds I've been in have been on the Chesapeake. The scariest was getting caught in a thunderstorm in the mid Atlantic. No issue with wind or waves. But watching lightning strikes a few hundred yards away ...
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31-05-2022, 21:04
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Various, Mooloolaba and Auckland
Boat: Clipper 60 SII
Posts: 159
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIT
With your experience in those waves, you'll not be overly impressed with gale force winds in the ocean.
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I agree that fresh water waves can be the worst waves you can find with the only exception of strong wind against tide situations. (Lake Taupo in NZ has scared me speechless a few times). Your experience in the Great Lakes will serve you well. I also agree that being bone tired after 10 days of unrelenting 50knots in the Southern Ocean is much harder and more dangerous than a couple of hours of 70 knots.
The only times I've been in extreme conditions is when I've had a fixed timetable. Ocean racing (very fixed timetable) has given me the most wild experiences. The Sydney - Hobart is a good race to do if you want to be knocked around; the Bass Strait can kick up some extreme wind/tide events.
For the cruising sailor (me now), who has the time to choose their weather window, there is really no excuse for getting into extreme offshore weather conditions, unless you want to. Our last crossing of the Tasman Sea (in marginal conditions) was made easy by Predict Wind on Iridium Go coupled with advice from Met Bob in Kerikeri.
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31-05-2022, 21:05
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#10
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 85
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
https://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/race/fleet
They would be of knowledge.
Navigation could teach recognition of systems and abilities to run around without running aground.
Big sails on a 70 footer that makes 35 knots under hull.
I think dance and avoidance coincide if coordinated. I ain't. Some of they might be better at such.
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31-05-2022, 22:53
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: Tayana Vancouver 42ac
Posts: 1,238
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnybrook
What's the best way for an experienced Great Lakes sailor to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience? I'd like to experience 20'+ waves and gale force winds in the ocean.
My goal is to understand what an angry ocean is really like as I think about my next boat--currently have a Catalina 34. I want to experience conditions that people think you need a "blue water" boat for.
I've sailed several Chicago-Mac races (including several as skipper) and experienced 12'+ very-steep (6 second) waves, severe thunderstorms (70+ knot gusts for short duration) and sustained 50 knot winds so I have 300+ mile mulit-day passage experience.
I like the John Kretschmer Sailing program but am looking for less time commitment and cost. Bad sailing weather seems rare when you're looking for it and have to plan travel time to get to it.
Thanks in advance for your ideas!
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Pacific Ocean weather systems are very large and can last a long time. Then there are the ever present swells that accentuate the waves. Bad weather is one thing but taken in the context that you are thousands of miles from the nearest land is the realistic venue you must remember you are operating in.
Those who race push their boats hard in an effort to go as fast as possible...that's understandable, its a race which usually lasts only a day or two. If you sail an ocean the objective is to keep the boat and crew together long enough with the stores and spare parts onboard to make your destination. My last roundtrip to Hawaii lasted 22.5 days going over and 21.5 days coming back (a longer distance) through a gale off the coast of Washington (Graveyard of the Pacific), hove-to for 30 hours.
Be careful what you wish for.
__________________
~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
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01-06-2022, 00:12
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Seattle
Boat: Snipe, Roughwater 41, and Islander 36
Posts: 239
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Hi Donnybrook,
Sailing back to California after doing the Pacific Cup race from San Francisco to Hawaii on my Canadian built 1980 C & C 40 Tall rig about 800 nm north of Hawaii I turned right through the top of the Pacific High and ended up in a system with 30 feet plus steep waves 9 seconds apart and 45+kts for a few days. I knew the waves were that height because they were many feet higher than the lower spreaders and sometimes nearly touching the upper spreaders. The lower spreaders were 26 ft above the water because I measured the distance when I got back to the dock. I had the main triple reefed and just a hankie of a headsail out. I was relieved with how well she behaved given the wild conditions. The wave tops were so sleucey. In daylight, the view from the top of those wave was astounding--very foamy crazy big seas as far as you can see all around and about 750 nm from shore. In that, you are on your own.
At night, well, in those conditions, you just drive--very noisy roaring.
My C & C40T spoiled me.
Prior to racing her doublehanded to Hawaii, I did a lot of singlehanded/doublehanded racing on her off shore outside the Channel Islands and down around Guadalupe Island off Baja. Not 30ft seas, only 20, but helpful for having an idea for how she would behave and what she needed in big conditions.
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01-06-2022, 02:10
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Miami
Boat: Boatless
Posts: 1,580
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Having taken severe rig damage in a F10 off New Zealand, I tend to agree with my mentor who said, “never leave a warm pub to go out in a gale!” We we’re in a warm pub on the Solent when news of the deaths of three sailors, out in a F9 and a 32 ft boat, was broadcast…they were 10 miles from the warm pub!
__________________
Phil
"Remember, experience only means that you screw-up less often."
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01-06-2022, 02:49
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#14
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cruiser
Join Date: May 2022
Posts: 85
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Picture from 1 of the around the world 70 foot clipper racing vessels from their internet page.
Note: fastening of hedsail.
That ain't a furling hedsail and that will preform alot better than such but needs hands to change sizing.
That fastening is still reliant of forestay so alot of heeling will torque yet because tack is independent they can also lose alot of torque from leading edge by maintaining tension of tack yet letting tack out slightly to allow a luff to form. Being the lead of sail, such torque forces on sail luff above will reduce and hence allowance of more sail area with more clew and a maybe a slight loss of point but gifted with more knots to make lesser more point from less.
Cruisers with furlers can't do this and reduce to fly a Yankee instead.
I'd rather love a Yankee. Just saying because it amazes me too.
Here's to the Yankees; hip hip.
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01-06-2022, 04:43
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#15
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Senior Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 51,311
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Re: How to get heavy weather ocean sailing experience
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnybrook
... I'd like to experience 20'+ waves and gale force winds in the ocean...
... I like the John Kretschmer Sailing program but am looking for less time commitment and cost...
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You want an extraordinary [dangerous] experience, instantly, on the cheap.
Maybe an amusement park ride?
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"
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