New to larger displacement boats..

[30West]

Originally Posted by StuM

I agree with you on the "machinery" point because you can go faster, go slower, stop and reverse with oars or paddles on demand just as you can with an engine - you are not constrained by external forces the way a sailing vessel is.

But I also agree with the Safety Officer - if you can't tell a sailing vessel from a vessel under oars, you need to treat them both the same.

Yes - it really needs to be updated.

Personally, even in a sailboat I steer well clear of the fishing dinghies and dugouts that are common in these parts.

I'm not sure how oars are more "machinery" than the array of mechanisms used to propel a sailboat. Rule 2 requires both common sense and consideration of limitations of vessels involved. While an Olympic 8-man crew can hit 11 knots, a simple rowboat isn't likely to make 3 knots for more than a few boat lengths. Common sense would say a rowboat is limited in maneuverability for the purposes of avoiding collision, more than a sailboat under sail.

[30West]

Originally Posted by StuM

Even more to the point - even when drifting, you are "underway" so not exempt from any of the relevant rules:

"The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground"

But are you still a power boat if you are not "propelled by machinery"? A sailboat with an engine fitted is not a powerboat, unless that propelling machinery is being used. You could even say the sailboat could run an engine but not engage the propeller, and still follow sailboat rules.

[canyonbat]

Originally Posted by StuM

Even more to the point - even when drifting, you are "underway" so not exempt from any of the relevant rules:

"The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast to the shore, or aground"

This is a technicality, or interpretation if you will, that few, if any, boats are aware of. As a a sailboat helmsman, I would be foolish to assume that the drifting boat is going to fire up his engine and move out of my way. Yes, I may give up some hard earned ground if I am beating my way upwind and have to dip down but that is sailing.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by 30West

I'm not sure how oars are more "machinery" than the array of mechanisms used to propel a sailboat. Rule 2 requires both common sense and consideration of limitations of vessels involved. While an Olympic 8-man crew can hit 11 knots, a simple rowboat isn't likely to make 3 knots for more than a few boat lengths. Common sense would say a rowboat is limited in maneuverability for the purposes of avoiding collision, more than a sailboat under sail.

No, row boats are slow they are not restricted. A vessel is only restricted if:

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.


Just because a vessel is slow, or not very maneuverable does not make them restricted. To be restricted the vessel must be engaged in some activity that specifically hampers its ability to navigate.

While I might agree with you about what should happen in a new rule, under the current rule they are treated as sailboats (even if I think they should be treated as power boats). The one thing they are not is restricted.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Stumble

It could be, and if you want to pay me to research it I would be happy to get in depth with it. But two of the larger circuits have held that you are responsible for your wake, and any damage it does (the 5th which is the most important Maritime court in the country, and the 11th which includes Florida).

There might B even something out there from the 9th (California) or one of the other smaller circuits. But if I walked into court on a Maritime claim with the 5th and 11th holdings directly on point I would bet a better than 95% chance to win absent a clear circuit split in that circuit.

The most likely way this gets brought to court is a big power boat goes by and the wake flips over a Kayack or paddle board and someone's goes to the hospital. In this case who do you think is the more sympathetic party, the rich guy who sent an 18 year old on a paddle board to the emergency room, or the guy with a big boat?

Greg,

Thanks!
I'm glad to hear of court empathy for blatant stupidity. I fear it could lead the same as auto accidents. If you have been in a slight fender bender call atty. Joe Blow I'll put a neck brace on you and we will sue.

Insurance rates will go up and everybody suffers. Boat insurance is already high enough. I wish I saw some indication of tort reform in general.

Roger

[30West]

Originally Posted by Stumble

No, row boats are slow they are not restricted. A vessel is only restricted if:

(g) The term "vessel restricted in her ability to maneuver" means a vessel which from the nature of her work is restricted in her ability to maneuver as required by these Rules and is therefore unable to keep out of the way of another vessel. The term "vessels restricted in their ability to maneuver" shall include but not be limited to:

(i) A vessel engaged in laying, servicing, or picking up a navigational mark, submarine cable or pipeline;
(ii) A vessel engaged in dredging, surveying or underwater operations;
(iii) A vessel engaged in replenishment or transferring persons, provisions or cargo while underway;
(iv) A vessel engaged in the launching or recovery of aircraft;
(v) A vessel engaged in mine clearance operations;
(vi) A vessel engaged in a towing operation such as severely restricts the towing vessel and her tow in their ability to deviate from their course.


Just because a vessel is slow, or not very maneuverable does not make them restricted. To be restricted the vessel must be engaged in some activity that specifically hampers its ability to navigate.

While I might agree with you about what should happen in a new rule, under the current rule they are treated as sailboats (even if I think they should be treated as power boats). The one thing they are not is restricted.

I agree a rowboat should not be considered "restricted", by the definition of restricted vessels. However, the first rule of Navigation Rules (Rule 2) specifically requires operators to consider the limitations of the vessels involved, and depart from all other Nav Rules, if those limitations of vessels involved require it. The fact that a rowboat can't practically avoid a collision with most vessels underway, means other vessels must give way when possible. That is how I taught it when I taught sailing, before I ever read the rules.

Rule 2 - Responsibility
(a) Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master, or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b) In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

[donradcliffe]

Rowboats predate the Colregs and I think that their omission from the rules was deliberate.

[Capt Phil]

This discussion brings back memories of the closest I ever came to a collision at sea. Driving a 60+ foot towboat inbound through the Straits of Juan de Fula back in the 60's, a sailboat in fairly light airs cut across my course from port to starboard. I was towing a rather large black oil barge from the west coast of Vancouver Island and had been running for about a day and a half. My speed was about 4 knots and very limited maneuverability. My decky was below asleep.
The sailboat was so close that I lost sight of it under my bow after several non- returned calls on channel 16 to stand clear.
The sailboat appeared on my starboard side being bounced pretty good and the guy on the tiller was waving and cursing at me( (I think) but I couldn't hear him over the sound of my engine. The famous one finger salute from he and his guests was prominent.
When I saw he cleared my bow, I was immediately concerned he would be run over by the barge which was about 30 feet wider than my tow boat on each side. He barely missed that adventure! I think my bow wave pushed him out of the way.
I guess he was trying to give his guests aboard a close look at my tow boat which they got but it nearly cost hm his life and his sailboat! Idiot!
Phil

[ashedd]

I've got some good ones for you..

What if I hoist a sheet up on a pvc mast.. am I then a sailboat? Is a motorsailor a sailboat or motor boat? What if my engine is permanently disabled, am I then a sailboat? And how about no sail, no motor, but I pick up my oar... am I row boat at that point? What's a paddle boat? Is it a row boat or powered boat?

This is my favorite what if...
What if I motor my way to the middle of the lake, shutdown, have too many drinks and become too drunk to legally operate a boat(keeping in mind that drinking on a boat is legal here). Am I now a vessel "not under command"?

Sounds to me that all this is subject to interpretation, like most laws. It's probably likely that no marine law enforcement entity would even care enough to enforce any of these rules and laws unless push came to shove. I'm fairly certain that the cop in the boat on the water doesn't know these laws/rules, he's only concerned about drunks and naked girls.

How would you ever take someone to court for a wake related mishap? You'd need to chase after them to get their info, then find the police to report it to. But then you would need proof that would hold up in court, and anything other than a police officer observing the offense would likely not get very far. It would be like turning someone in for speeding by giving their plate number to the traffic court. If the police didn't witness it then it didn't happen as far the court would be concerned.

I guess we're back to just a wave and the middle finger to out fellow boaters. Could you imagine if the roadways operated in a similar fashion lol

[ashedd]

Originally Posted by Capt Phil

This discussion brings back memories of the closest I ever came to a collision at sea. Driving a 60+ foot towboat inbound through the Straits of Juan de Fula back in the 60's, a sailboat in fairly light airs cut across my course from port to starboard. I was towing a rather large black oil barge from the west coast of Vancouver Island and had been running for about a day and a half. My speed was about 4 knots and very limited maneuverability. My decky was below asleep.
The sailboat was so close that I lost sight of it under my bow after several non- returned calls on channel 16 to stand clear.
The sailboat appeared on my starboard side being bounced pretty good and the guy on the tiller was waving and cursing at me( (I think) but I couldn't hear him over the sound of my engine. The famous one finger salute from he and his guests was prominent.
When I saw he cleared my bow, I was immediately concerned he would be run over by the barge which was about 30 feet wider than my tow boat on each side. He barely missed that adventure! I think my bow wave pushed him out of the way.
I guess he was trying to give his guests aboard a close look at my tow boat which they got but it nearly cost hm his life and his sailboat! Idiot!
Phil

I've always wondered... could you cross between the tug and the barge and get decapitated, so to speak, by the tow line? Seems like a dangerous place to be in a limited viability situation.

[mako]

ashedd, I like your tirade and identify with the frustration. Interesting enough over here in Qatar, we have some of the most aggressive and arrogant drivers I've ever seen. No control by traffic police over them either. However, if you stick your middle finger up it's a short trip to getting jailed and deported! Happens all too often unfortunately.

On the plus side, we don't have civil suits or rampant litigation like back in the USA, so in a way it's more civilized here - go figure

[30West]

Originally Posted by ashedd

I've got some good ones for you..

What if I hoist a sheet up on a pvc mast.. am I then a sailboat? Is a motorsailor a sailboat or motor boat? What if my engine is permanently disabled, am I then a sailboat? And how about no sail, no motor, but I pick up my oar... am I row boat at that point? What's a paddle boat? Is it a row boat or powered boat?

This is my favorite what if...
What if I motor my way to the middle of the lake, shutdown, have too many drinks and become too drunk to legally operate a boat(keeping in mind that drinking on a boat is legal here). Am I now a vessel "not under command"?

Sounds to me that all this is subject to interpretation, like most laws. It's probably likely that no marine law enforcement entity would even care enough to enforce any of these rules and laws unless push came to shove. I'm fairly certain that the cop in the boat on the water doesn't know these laws/rules, he's only concerned about drunks and naked girls.

How would you ever take someone to court for a wake related mishap? You'd need to chase after them to get their info, then find the police to report it to. But then you would need proof that would hold up in court, and anything other than a police officer observing the offense would likely not get very far. It would be like turning someone in for speeding by giving their plate number to the traffic court. If the police didn't witness it then it didn't happen as far the court would be concerned.

I guess we're back to just a wave and the middle finger to out fellow boaters. Could you imagine if the roadways operated in a similar fashion lol

Well, I guess you need to figure it all out now with that boat. That size boat gets you into various new rules, like the requirement to carry a copy of the rules on the boat. If you don't know what rules are different for that size boat, better get those rules and start reading.

[four winds]

Just scanned this thread, unusual for me. Not much content in any relation to the initial post.

But to the OP. That is a very good looking boat. For me, I think running about in that beauty at 1500-1600 from place to place is grand ticket. First class.

Two v8s barely above a rumble and glossy brightwork. !.!

Idle speed, yeah, once drove one that was 7 knots in gear. Lots of coasting and bump in and out of gear. Even that would be fun cruising your ride.

[ashedd]

Originally Posted by four winds

Just scanned this thread, unusual for me. Not much content in any relation to the initial post.

But to the OP. That is a very good looking boat. For me, I think running about in that beauty at 1500-1600 from place to place is grand ticket. First class.

Two v8s barely above a rumble and glossy brightwork. !.!

Idle speed, yeah, once drove one that was 7 knots in gear. Lots of coasting and bump in and out of gear. Even that would be fun cruising your ride.

HA.. yeah this thread was derailed after my first post and they started basically calling me an a-hole for a wake comment.

But anyway..
Thanks for the words.. I think this boat is way too big for me and I'm getting constant pressure at home to get rid of it. My starboard transmission went out a couple weeks ago so I'm in a period of not wanting to deal with it right now. That tends to happen when something major breaks and I get sick of looking at it. Eventually I'll go back out and deal with it. I don't pay people to work on my boats, or else it would be too expensive, so I have to pick my battles.

I was thinking of only keeping the transom, aft decks, and window frames bright. I wanted to paint the fore deck and gunwales to give it a little more modern look and to add slip resistant stuff to the paint. There's plenty of bright work to go around in the cabin and on the decks. Plus it's mahogany and not teak, the paint can be removed semi easily if someone wants to go back in the future.

But agree that slow is the way to cruise this boat.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by ashedd

I've got some good ones for you..

What if I hoist a sheet up on a pvc mast.. am I then a sailboat? Is a motorsailor a sailboat or motor boat? What if my engine is permanently disabled, am I then a sailboat? And how about no sail, no motor, but I pick up my oar... am I row boat at that point? What's a paddle boat? Is it a row boat or powered boat?

As Hedd, all I can say is, you picked a good forum name.

Try reading COLREGS.