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Old 07-12-2016, 10:23   #61
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

A larger chart snippet of the area, with the traffic lanes clearly marked to the east.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:13   #62
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Here is a picture of the typical Puget Sound sailing environment. It was taken 2 NM ENE of the collision location right at the southern most portion of the Vessel Traffic System South Bound lane shown in Pyxis156 chart in the prior post.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:55   #63
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Nope...not a Bayliner. My bad. They mentioned Bayliner in the article as it would have crushed in.
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:56   #64
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

A container ship in a traffic lane is way different in restricted maneuverabilty than a ferry. Depending on the ferry's exact location, I think they're both at equal fault. I hope someone posts the official findings when they are issued.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:10   #65
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
A container ship in a traffic lane is way different in restricted maneuverabilty than a ferry. Depending on the ferry's exact location, I think they're both at equal fault. I hope someone posts the official findings when they are issued.
Yes. Most likely the two vessels are equally at fault.

A lot of erroneous information about the Rules has been posted in this thread.

1. There are no such concepts as "right of way"; "burden"; or "privilege", at sea. Not just the words don't appear in the Rules -- the concepts do not exist, and are misleading and harmful.

2. How fast a vessel can stop or turn has no effect on its status under the Rules.

3. Who is at fault is not an "either/or" situation,

4. "Restricted in ability to maneuver" is not a status which appears just because you have some limitations or problems maneuvering. The status appears only in very specific circumstances, and ONLY when appropriate signals are shown. Otherwise, you have the same duties as any other vessel of your type.


From what I can tell from the materials (and a big caveat that this may not be the whole story), I sympathize with the G Captain opinion that the pleasure boat was most egregiously at fault. But the ferry had an equal obligation to avoid the accident, so is likely also at fault, and probably to an equal degree, the way the Rules are applied.
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Old 07-12-2016, 12:21   #66
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
> I've never heard the term "bow to beam bearing" - although it may be alliterative, it has no real meaning.

I had learned most of what I know through the Canadian power squadron in the early 70's. I stand by what I know. I'm sure COLREG's has different terminology.
"Bow to beam bearing", just means how many degrees off "dead ahead" that a target is. It doesn't tell us anything about whether that bearing is changing.

More importantly, it varies constantly on a sailboat which may well be moving through an arc of 10° either because of wind and waves.

That is why it is a very poor substitute for using a compass to accurately determine whether another vessel is on a "constant bearing".
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Old 07-12-2016, 13:38   #67
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Yes. Most likely the two vessels are equally at fault....

From what I can tell from the materials (and a big caveat that this may not be the whole story), I sympathize with the G Captain opinion that the pleasure boat was most egregiously at fault. But the ferry had an equal obligation to avoid the accident, so is likely also at fault, and probably to an equal degree, the way the Rules are applied.
Just asking - would the ferry captain get some credit for watching, signalling, and taking action that, although the collision was not prevented, it was much less severe? Enough to make it like 75% - 25% responsibility (trawler - ferry)?
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:14   #68
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Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Looked like little if any damage was done, who will come out the worst in this will I think be the Ferry Capt. As he is a professional, and like it or not but a professional is usually held to a higher standard than Joe civilian.
It may have an impact on his career, but the owner of the powerboat won't even have a rise in insurance premiums I don't think?
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:16   #69
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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1. There are no such concepts as "right of way"; "burden"; or "privilege", at sea. Not just the words don't appear in the Rules -- the concepts do not exist, and are misleading and harmful.
Would you mind elaborating? I thought the port/starboard, power/sail, overtaking rules applied at sea. I would be stunned if you can show me where they don't. Are you truly saying that the concepts of "burdened" and "privileged" don't apply?
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:40   #70
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Would you mind elaborating? I thought the port/starboard, power/sail, overtaking rules applied at sea. I would be stunned if you can show me where they don't. Are you truly saying that the concepts of "burdened" and "privileged" don't apply?
When boats meet is certainly listed in Colregs (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent) but specific terminology such as "right of way" does not. I've actually searched the rules in the past because we use it so ubiquitously, but it's incorrect.
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:47   #71
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

True, the "right of way" terminology does not appear in the regs, but the *concepts* of "burdened" and "privileged" have to apply. The rules use the terms "give way" and "stand on", but I think the meaning is the same.

So, Dockhead, are you saying that there is a practical difference in meaning between "give way" and "burdened", or "stand on" and "privileged"?
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Old 07-12-2016, 14:55   #72
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
Would you mind elaborating? I thought the port/starboard, power/sail, overtaking rules applied at sea. I would be stunned if you can show me where they don't. Are you truly saying that the concepts of "burdened" and "privileged" don't apply?
The concepts in your second sentence certainly do apply. They are the fundamentals of COLREGS.

"Burdened" and "Privileged" are a different matter entirely. It's not a matter whether they "apply", it's a matter of whether those words are relevant or applicable.

There is certainly no "privilege" anywhere . Only an obligation to maintain course and speed.

"Burdened" in my experience means obligated to take action (i.e. the "give way vessel". The problem is that doesn't have an official definition

The fact that there are several conflicting interpretations of "burdened" from different posters in this thread clearly demonstrates the problem with using such undefined terms.

It is much better to avoid such nebulous expressions and just follow the COLREGS:

"one of them shall keep out of the way of the other as follows:"

"Where one of two vessels is to keep out of the way the other shall keep her course and speed."

These are normally paraphrased to the clearly understood and equivalent "give way vessel" and "stand on vessel" with no suggestion that either vessel has "rights" or "privileges".
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:35   #73
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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"Burdened" and "Privileged" are a different matter entirely. It's not a matter whether they "apply", it's a matter of whether those words are relevant or applicable.
OK. In my mind, in the context of the sailing rules "privileged" is an exact synonym for "stand on". Obviously not everyone shares my accurate and enlightened interpretation.

So Dockhead may be discussing the definition of the terms, and not trying to claim that concept of "stand on" does not exist. I hope this is the case!
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:40   #74
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Great! Just Great!
Only minutes ago, I signed us up as a new members of CF to learn as much as possible about choice of power boat, living aboard in the PNW, navigation, maintenance, etc., etc.....and the first thing I read is 'State ferry runs over private boat in the Puget sound'.....Swell!
Well, bring it, I say...It is not going to discourage us one single bit. The wheels are already in motion to sell, gift or trade most of our land possessions and CA assets.
The goal:
To semi-retire into liveaboard communities in the Puget and Desolation Sounds.
The boat:
44'-52' Trawler or aft cabin CPMY with twin diesel engines and enough HP to handle those PNW current changes. No Detroit leakers or wimpy Lehman 120s, please. I feel better carrying 350HP and up. And at least 6'4' indoor clearance. We are tall (combined 12'5' - 6'4" + 6'1")
The family:
Wife, moi and our two 90lbs Labradoodles.
Time Frame: We'll buy the boat in May/June, upgrade and equipt it, as needed. Then make the final move in late Summer/Fall 2017.
The decision was made 4 weeks ago. So far, these are the items we have agreed upon:
Fall/Winter home: Anacortes
Summer home: Many places north and north west of Vancouver, BC. Not planning to go past Port McNeil for a while.
Boat choices:
Down to 35 candidate yachts we're following till mid-winter before we pull the trigger.
Marine Traders, DeFevers, Californians and a few custom made ones.
Fiberglass over teak decks are highly preferred.
Must have a 3'+ cockpit and an aft cabin.
AC preferred, but will settle for space coolers if all else is close to ideal.
300' of chain + 200' of rode on main 40-60lbs anchor. 2 additional smaller anchors with the similar chain/rode.
11'-12' dinghy with hard bottom. 15hp outboard.
We'll need to figure out what satellite services are available for phone and email when we're cruising. Still have a CA business to run via remote control, at least a few times per week..
Propane stove over electric
NO Carpet flooring inside.
Two heads, two showers.
You comments, opinions, warnings and suggestions are more than welcome
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Old 07-12-2016, 16:51   #75
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Elliott View Post
OK. In my mind, in the context of the sailing rules "privileged" is an exact synonym for "stand on". Obviously not everyone shares my accurate and enlightened interpretation.

So Dockhead may be discussing the definition of the terms, and not trying to claim that concept of "stand on" does not exist. I hope this is the case!
IIRC, Paul, in many of Dockhead's excellent posts on colgregs, he has noted that burdened and privileged have been eliminated from colregs and replaced with stand on and give way to avoid confusion.
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