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Old 07-12-2016, 18:10   #76
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by Lake-Effect View Post
5 blasts is "danger! look out!" in any situation, isn't it? It's not necessarily asserting right of way.
The specific rule is 34(d) -
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When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle. Such signal may be supplemented by a light signal of at least five short and rapid flashes.
Put in context, the ferry is telling Nap Time either that her movements are not understood, or she is not taking the required action - this is not what a professional mariner in the give way vessel would normally sound.
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Old 07-12-2016, 18:16   #77
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
I had learned most of what I know through the Canadian power squadron in the early 70's. I stand by what I know. I'm sure COLREG's has different terminology.
Colregs as they are known today derived from conventions that occurred in the early 70s - that's why they're known as the 72 Colregs. They didn't come into effect until the late 70s. There have been a number of amendments since. One needs to keep up with the times.
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Old 07-12-2016, 18:35   #78
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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OK. In my mind, in the context of the sailing rules "privileged" is an exact synonym for "stand on". Obviously not everyone shares my accurate and enlightened interpretation.

So Dockhead may be discussing the definition of the terms, and not trying to claim that concept of "stand on" does not exist. I hope this is the case!
The problem with using the word "privileged" as a synonym for "stand on" is that "privileged" carries all those other synonyms such as "rights", "benefits", "entitlements","freedoms" etc. All of which are the very antithesis of the real obligation to maintain course and speed.

And as we've seen some believe that "burdened" means "obliged to give way", while others believe it means "less able to maneouver".

Best to just avoid the terms completely.
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Old 07-12-2016, 18:38   #79
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Colregs as they are known today derived from conventions that occurred in the early 70s - that's why they're known as the 72 Colregs. They didn't come into effect until the late 70s. There have been a number of amendments since. One needs to keep up with the times.
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Old 07-12-2016, 18:39   #80
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by StuM View Post
"Bow to beam bearing", just means how many degrees off "dead ahead" that a target is. It doesn't tell us anything about whether that bearing is changing.

More importantly, it varies constantly on a sailboat which may well be moving through an arc of 10° either because of wind and waves.

That is why it is a very poor substitute for using a compass to accurately determine whether another vessel is on a "constant bearing".
That's correct Stu. Had I better explained it I would have noted an unchanged "Bow to Beam bearing. So lets say someone is "a distance" off your starboard bow. If you eyeball them through your rigging and there is no change (lets say 45 degrees all the time) then you are on a collision course.
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Old 07-12-2016, 18:52   #81
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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I also estimate Nap Tyme's course to be almost exactly that dashed black line as that is where his waypoint would have been taking him back home to Gig Harbor.
That dashed line would have taken him through a precautionary area - not exactly a no-go area, but if the sound is as busy as you say, I doubt a local mariner would plan tracks cutting that close to the lanes. Do you know where Nap Time was coming from? Might he have not come around Neill Pt from Quartermaster Hbr?
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Old 07-12-2016, 18:52   #82
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
The specific rule is 34(d) - Put in context, the ferry is telling Nap Time either that her movements are not understood, or she is not taking the required action - this is not what a professional mariner in the give way vessel would normally sound.
What would the give-way vessel normally sound? Not knowing if the ferry was restricted, it kinda appeared to me that those 5 blasts were an "oh ****" moment. We're all assuming (at least I am because I am not familiar with the WSFs or that area) that the video was shot with the view directly toward the bow. It is possible (and speculative) that the ferry captain may not have seen the rec boat because it was slightly aft of his view, then he laid on the horn when the rec boat was closing in. Shortly after, he started to make a slight turn to port. Then, when a collision was imminent, he threw it into reverse and turned hard left (though in reverse, he should turn toward starboard to get the bow to port). It is 20 seconds from the time of the first horn blast to the time of impact. How well do you think you would be in processing a dire situation, deciding on the correct course of action, implementing it, then making the vessel respond accordingly in 20 seconds?
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Old 07-12-2016, 19:08   #83
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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What would the give-way vessel normally sound?
- one short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”,
- two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”,
- three short blasts to mean “I am operating astern propulsion"
The give way vessel would give way and any signal would indicate the action taken. The only time I could see the give way vessel giving 5 short, would be if it had taken avoiding action and then the 'stand-on' vessel subsequently manoeuvred to cause a risk of collision again.

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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
Not knowing if the ferry was restricted,
...
that the video was shot with the view directly toward the bow.
There's nothing to suggest the ferry was restricted and I'd say the view was towards the ferry's starboard beam.

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How well do you think you would be in processing a dire situation, deciding on the correct course of action, implementing it, then making the vessel respond accordingly in 20 seconds?
I think I'd do fairly well, thank you for asking
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Old 07-12-2016, 19:34   #84
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Go to say I'm impressed with how quickly the ferry stopped. When he finally did decide o stop, that is.
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Old 07-12-2016, 19:55   #85
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
That dashed line would have taken him through a precautionary area - not exactly a no-go area, but if the sound is as busy as you say, I doubt a local mariner would plan tracks cutting that close to the lanes. Do you know where Nap Time was coming from? Might he have not come around Neill Pt from Quartermaster Hbr?
What precautionary area? The only thing my chart shows is cable crossing. The VTS system ends west of Brown's point. The waters between Pt Defiance and the South end of Vashon Island are frequently full of small fishing boats, which troll at 4 knots or randomly drift with the current.

There is a entrance to the Pt Defiance small boat harbor adjacent to the Pt Defiance ferry landing. Inside the entrance is a four lane boat launch, which in Salmon season sees many hundreds of boats a day coming and going with no regard to ferries or crossing lanes. The Tacoma Yacht Club is based inside there and the marina has about 100 boat slips ranging from 24' to 50'

There are frequently 50 to 100 boats milling about the area between Vashon and Pt. Defiance.

I have never known about a precautionary area between Vashon and Pt Defiance.
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Old 07-12-2016, 21:38   #86
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by gamayun View Post
What would the give-way vessel normally sound? Not knowing if the ferry was restricted, it kinda appeared to me that those 5 blasts were an "oh ****" moment. We're all assuming (at least I am because I am not familiar with the WSFs or that area) that the video was shot with the view directly toward the bow. It is possible (and speculative) that the ferry captain may not have seen the rec boat because it was slightly aft of his view, then he laid on the horn when the rec boat was closing in. Shortly after, he started to make a slight turn to port. Then, when a collision was imminent, he threw it into reverse and turned hard left (though in reverse, he should turn toward starboard to get the bow to port). It is 20 seconds from the time of the first horn blast to the time of impact. How well do you think you would be in processing a dire situation, deciding on the correct course of action, implementing it, then making the vessel respond accordingly in 20 seconds?
Most, if not all WSF ferries have a rudder at each end as well as a variable pitch prop at each end.
I doubt both rudders are steerable at the same time.
Also, I don't know whether or not both propellers can be engaged at the same time, but it's pretty obvious to me the backwash of the ferry's hard reverse saved the dummy in the powerboat from becoming room temperature by submersion as he would have otherwise rolled underneath.

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Old 08-12-2016, 00:24   #87
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
That dashed line would have taken him through a precautionary area - not exactly a no-go area, but if the sound is as busy as you say, I doubt a local mariner would plan tracks cutting that close to the lanes. Do you know where Nap Time was coming from? Might he have not come around Neill Pt from Quartermaster Hbr?
Nap Tyme was heading west, not east so the precautionary area was behind him and he was heading away from it. Even if he had come out of Quartermaster Harbor, by the time he was where he was in the video he had cleared Neill Point and was pretty close to being on a direct line to Gig Harbor to the west.

As far as not cutting close to the traffic lanes or precautionary areas... you have to do it all the time here as the traffic lanes often take up the majority of the waterway in Puget Sound. You just need to keep an eye out and AIS is a huge help as it lets you see what is coming your way with plenty of warning despite the large commercial and military vessels often doing 20+ knots. There are high speed ferries (the Victoria Clippers) between Seattle and Victoria capable of doing 30 knots as well. As you said, the areas just that... precautionary, not no-go.
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Old 08-12-2016, 01:08   #88
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Hello, forum.

It's worth noting that small recreational vessels (any not participating in VTS) do not EVER have right of way over commercial vessels participating in VTS. This situation is not limited to just the traffic lanes, but applies throughout the sound.

This does not mean that commercial boats have the right to run anybody down, of course, but it was absolutely, positively the powerboater's obligation to keep clear in this case.

Many summer days, one hear a guy asserting his 'rights' while trying to cross a container ship or the like. "Hanjin Seattle, I'm the 25 foot sailboat off your starboard bow, you have to give way because I'm under sail..."

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Old 08-12-2016, 01:26   #89
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

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It's worth noting that small recreational vessels (any not participating in VTS) do not EVER have right of way over commercial vessels participating in VTS. This situation is not limited to just the traffic lanes, but applies throughout the sound.

This does not mean that commercial boats have the right to run anybody down, of course, but it was absolutely, positively the powerboater's obligation to keep clear in this case.
I don't believe that the ferries are participating in VTS, and this one was not operating in a VTS lane. It was not the powerboater's obligation to keep clear, other than the 100-yard exclusion zone. It *was* the obligation of both vessels to operate according to COLREGS, and neither one did so.

It would have been prudent and polite for the powerboat to alter course early enough that his intentions would be obvious, but this is not a COLREGS obligation.

So a question: Does the 100-yard exclusion zone have priority over all other COLREGS requirements? Does it negate the regular stand-on / give-way rules? I honestly don't know.
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Old 08-12-2016, 01:44   #90
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Re: Ferry And Powerboat Collide

Paul, the ferries absolutely do participate in VTS throughout the sound and San Juans. You can hear their movements on 5a N of bush point, and on 14 S of there (Victoria traffic is ch. 11). I always have on VHF on the appropriate VTS channel when sailing there, it helps with situational awareness a lot.

For the purposes of Colregs, the entire navigational area of WA inside Cape Flattery is considered to be restricted maneuverability for the big commercial guys, ferries included, and it is incumbent on non-participating vessels to keep clear.

This doesn't absolve anybody involved in a collision, of course, but it was most assuredly the responsibility of the pleasure boat to keep clear in this case.

The 100 yard zone is a different matter, but is does not supersede colregs. The powerboat should have avoided collision first, the minimum of 100 yards is additional. But, one should really give a RAM vessel more room than that in any case.
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