The GGR race, discussion and news

[daletournier]

Just read the Susie story and the stern to bow rollover. One tuff chick.

I know everyone of those sailors are made of grittier stuff than me, I take my hat of to them all.

[30yearslater]

Yikes! I also read the professional mariners news and commentary on a regular basis. It seems with each successive rescue of a recreational sailor the animosity level is rising due to the schedules and cost involved when a ship deviates from its' route and screws up the ballet at the terminal. I do hope the race sponsors have insurance or are posting a bond to compensate the ship owners for lost revenue. Remember unless we are engaged in commerce we are essentially considered recreational. This doesn't preclude operating with professionalism which hopefully we all do but at the end of the day we are still recreational. I am glad Ms. Goodall has survived her ordeal and been rescued. I for one would hate to think these feats of daring do that cost shipping companies tens of thousands of dollars in lost revenue without recompense. Seeing the commentary levels rise in the pro groups is cause for concern. Being referred to as a W.A.F.I. (Wind Assisted **#%@&g Idiot) by the big boys should give all of us cause for concern. It should also give us pause with the advent of autonomous ships that will operate with minimal or no crew that will be unable to assist in the very near future. Again glad everything worked out well but these times are achanging.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by kindrunnermike

Bravo!

¿Qué? ¿No entiende 'banter'?

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

Yikes! I also read the professional mariners news and commentary on a regular basis. It seems with each successive rescue of a recreational sailor the animosity level is rising due to the schedules and cost involved when a ship deviates from its' route and screws up the ballet at the terminal. I do hope the race sponsors have insurance or are posting a bond to compensate the ship owners for lost revenue. Remember unless we are engaged in commerce we are essentially considered recreational. This doesn't preclude operating with professionalism which hopefully we all do but at the end of the day we are still recreational. I am glad Ms. Goodall has survived her ordeal and been rescued. I for one would hate to think these feats of daring do that cost shipping companies tens of thousands of dollars in lost revenue without recompense. Seeing the commentary levels rise in the pro groups is cause for concern. Being referred to as a W.A.F.I. (Wind Assisted **#%@&g Idiot) by the big boys should give all of us cause for concern. It should also give us pause with the advent of autonomous ships that will operate with minimal or no crew that will be unable to assist in the very near future. Again glad everything worked out well but these times are achanging.

The shipowner's P&I club will pick up the tab.... no 'out of pocket' for the shipowner.....

And how often does this happen?... extremely rare in the scheme of things....

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

Yikes! I also read the professional mariners news and commentary on a regular basis. It seems with each successive rescue of a recreational sailor the animosity level is rising due to the schedules and cost involved when a ship deviates from its' route and screws up the ballet at the terminal. I do hope the race sponsors have insurance or are posting a bond to compensate the ship owners for lost revenue. Remember unless we are engaged in commerce we are essentially considered recreational. This doesn't preclude operating with professionalism which hopefully we all do but at the end of the day we are still recreational. I am glad Ms. Goodall has survived her ordeal and been rescued. I for one would hate to think these feats of daring do that cost shipping companies tens of thousands of dollars in lost revenue without recompense. Seeing the commentary levels rise in the pro groups is cause for concern. Being referred to as a W.A.F.I. (Wind Assisted **#%@&g Idiot) by the big boys should give all of us cause for concern. It should also give us pause with the advent of autonomous ships that will operate with minimal or no crew that will be unable to assist in the very near future. Again glad everything worked out well but these times are achanging.

Even a thought of comparing these sailors to WAFI is big mistake on your part. Nothing in common.. But maybe it's just your try to feel equal with Susie

[30yearslater]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

The shipowner's P&I club will pick up the tab.... no 'out of pocket' for the shipowner.....

And how often does this happen?... extremely rare in the scheme of things....

Couldn't agree more with your second statement. My concern is with your first. If the shipowners insurance is footing the bill for these deviations I can't imagine this will end well. The stampede of insurance companies to lobby the IMO for rule changes won't end well for sailors in distress or these last great adventures. Hopefully the number of incidents remain small so we can fly under the radar so to speak. Here is what the pros are saying:
gCaptain
14 hrs ·
Susie Goodall had waited two days for rescue after her sailboat capsized and lost its mast in a storm. The 29-year-old is the youngest entrant in the Golden Globe race.

GCAPTAIN.COM
British Golden Globe Yachtswoman Rescued by Cargo Ship in South Pacific – gCaptain
0sharesLONDON, Dec 7 (Reuters) – British solo round-the-world yachtswoman Susie Goodall was rescued by a cargo ship on Friday after her boat capsized and lost its mast during a violent storm in the southern Pacific Ocean. The 29-year-old, the youngest entrant in the Golden Globe race, had waited t...
12 Comments33 Shares
252252
Like
Show more reactions
Comment
Share
Most Relevant
Comments
Joe Fiss

Write a comment...

Choose File
Christian E. Rørbeck
Christian E. Rørbeck Have always wondered why all these single hand sailors don’t get a huge fine according to COLREGS §5
1
Manage
Like · Reply · 1h
Michael Golding
Michael Golding Job for the boys!
Manage
Like · Reply · 10m
Joe Fiss

Write a reply...

Choose File
Michael Doherty
Michael Doherty Well said. Is she going to be able to pay for the services provided by the vessel. Time off charter, maneuvering, overtime, work rest rules, exter fuel spent running generators. It's one thing for ships that are well prepared to be out at sea and need …See More
3
Manage
Like · Reply · 10h
4 Replies · 4 mins
Franz Mandl
Franz Mandl Would like to but not good enough
Manage
Like · Reply · 8h
Peter Walton
Peter Walton Glad to hear she was successfully rescued
Manage
Like · Reply · 10h
Thomas Zwaenepoel
Thomas Zwaenepoel Adelheid Greven
Manage
Like · Reply · 11h
Simon Holmes
Simon Holmes Do we know if the yacht was taken onboard, left to drift ! or scuttled?
Manage
Like · Reply · 12h
Debbie White
Debbie White She pitch poled and lost the ability to jerry rig. The hull was sound There is a full report in the gcaptain magazine.
Manage
Like · Reply · 12h
Erik Lorentzen
Erik Lorentzen Haven’t sailed long enough until you flipped one, courage undeniable!
Manage
Like · Reply · 2h
Craig Fowler
Craig Fowler No sympathy, these yachts that sail with one person on board, are breaking all the laws or “rules” set out by the IMO etc by failing on rule 5, yet are first to complain if their plastic yacht that is unlit and hit by a commercial ship at night whilst …See More
5
Manage
Like · Reply · 10h
Berndt Rudiger Olesen
Berndt Rudiger Olesen Spare a thought for the sailors, who rescued the women and for the ship owners, who have to foot the bill.
5
Manage
Like · Reply · 11h
Hugh Smith
Hugh Smith Pfffft..... I would have been more impressed if she jerry rigged a mast and made it to port....
1
Manage
Like · Reply · 13h
5 Replies · 6 hrs
Ben Mccabe
Ben Mccabe Any solo round the world race is stupid these people are relying on other ships rescue services to get them out of trouble ,they should be made to pay for all expenses incurred by any vessel or rescue services, if they are going alone in the southern ocean or anywhere else they should be made to take out insurance to cover the cost of a rescue ,I'd expect the premiums to be high which might put them off
Manage
Like · Reply ·

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

Couldn't agree more with your second statement. My concern is with your first. If the shipowners insurance is footing the bill for these deviations I can't imagine this will end well. The stampede of insurance companies to lobby the IMO for rule changes won't end well for sailors in distress or these last great adventures. Hopefully the number of incidents remain small so we can fly under the radar so to speak. Here is what the pros are saying: ·

It would be unusual for a ship owners's insurance to cover rescue costs. So their would be no effect on premiums. They would possibly have a claim against Susie, however more than likely the publicity they will gain from rescuing Susie would most likely outweigh thoughts of cost recovery.

And quite frankly the cost of diverting for 1-2 days is minor. All these vessels plan for demurrage costs at their next port of call, with a window of 48-72 hours for arriving to pick up the next cargo. They could easily get a weather related delay in a single voyage, which would be longer than the time takem to pick up Susie.

Ilenart

[Methersgate]

I work for the company that owns the TIANFU (I have to write her name as one word because the board software thinks I am trying to write a naughty word rather than the Mandarin word for “luck”... her name is “Heavenly Luck” and Susie Goodall might find it appropriate!)

(Her decks are probably full of wind farm turbine blades so nowhere to park a Rustler 36 even if they could have lifted her.)

On the question of whether there is insurance for the costs of the deviation to rescue Susie Goodall - yes there is. This particular ship is in the West of England P&I Club. I don’t manage this ship but I do know the team who do. I spoke yesterday to the West of England’s senior underwriter in Hong Kong, he happens to be an old friend, and he confirmed that there is no problem with them picking up the bill - see below.

The shipowning companies asked the P&I Clubs to cover this at the time of the Vietnamese “boat people” and the Clubs amended their rules accordingly.

How often does this happen? In my forty year career it has happened to ships that I manage seven times. Two yachts, three sinking merchant ships and two refugee boats one of which had sixty aboard. There’s no difference in the way they are all treated.

How much does it cost?

Might be between ten and twenty thousand dollars, or thereabouts. But as you will gather, it’s not unusual to deviate to pick people up. I had an American friend (who unusually was a Master in a British company and who incidentally sailed round the world in his Westsail 32 after he retired) who, as Master of offshore supply vessels in the Gulf of Thailand, picked up ten thousand people (this was the era of the Vietnamese “boat people”) and jokingly asked when the RNLI were going to come up with his medal! An extreme case, but the procedures are well established, there is no difference between a single handed yachtswoman and a Syrian refugee in an inflatable dinghy, and, so far as any seaman is concerned, it might be him being picked up next time.

Now, on the question of claiming the money back:

Legally, there is no basis to do so under English law, because English law does not recognise the concept of "life salvage" - the Maritime Conventions Act states that it is the duty of seamen to save life at sea, and since a salvor must be "a volunteer" rather than being legally bound to help, there is no salvage claim for saving life. English law does not necessarily apply in the South Pacific but the TIANFU is a Hong Kong ship and the law of Hong Kong is the same on this point.

However, you can sometimes ask nicely. One of "my" ships picked up the crew of a Filipino log carrier that capsized off the coast of Papua New Guinea, three years ago, and rather than claim on our own P&I Club (which happened to be the West of England) I wrote to the Standard P&I Club, for whom I once worked, with which that ship had been "entered", and asked if they would do the decent thing, which they did. It being a small world, I know the owner of the logger socially, which may have helped.

On another occasion when I was working for the British outfit who employed me and my American friend mentioned above we deviated a big ship for over a thousand miles at high speed to pick up the crew of a US Coast Guard cutter, who had parked their ship much too firmly on a barren reef between New Caledonia and nowhere in particular. We sent the bill to the USCG, and got a nice letter back, thanking us for our efforts “which were in the finest traditions of the sea,” but no dosh. So I commanded that copies of the letter be framed on the wheelhouse bulkheads of all our ships calling at US ports, and we had no trouble from the USCG for a good long time...

Here's the exact passage from the West of England Rule Book. Other Clubs have similar wordings:
Quote:
Section 5
Diversion expenses
The net cost to the Member (over and above the expenses that would have been
incurred but for the diversion or delay) of fuel, insurance, wages, stores, provisions
and port charges:-

(a) during a diversion of the insured vessel reasonably undertaken for the purpose of
search and rescue of persons at sea or for the purpose of securing the necessary
treatment ashore of sick or injured persons aboard the insured vessel, or of landing
stowaways, refugees or persons saved at sea or dead bodies; or

(b) while awaiting a substitute for a sick or injured seaman who has been landed
ashore for treatment, if in the opinion of the Managers it was reasonable to
engage such a substitute.
Unquote


From what I have read here, Susie Goodall was just unlucky; her boat was well prepared and she did all the right things. To have the Monitor safety tube break followed by the series drogue bridle failing was really rotten luck.

Oh, and if you want to know what the professionals think, don’t read GCaptain. It’s full of posers. You could ask El Penguino. He’s one.

[30yearslater]

Originally Posted by ilenart

It would be unusual for a ship owners's insurance to cover rescue costs. So their would be no effect on premiums. They would possibly have a claim against Susie, however more than likely the publicity they will gain from rescuing Susie would most likely outweigh thoughts of cost recovery.

And quite frankly the cost of diverting for 1-2 days is minor. All these vessels plan for demurrage costs at their next port of call, with a window of 48-72 hours for arriving to pick up the next cargo. They could easily get a weather related delay in a single voyage, which would be longer than the time takem to pick up Susie.

Ilenart

I'm hoping this is indeed the case. One containership captain (Master Unlimited) and one tankerman (Master Unlimiited) who sail with me have called it a day due to ridiculously tight schedules as ports are becoming more tight and the constant stress. At some of the busier ports the berthing slots are down to a few hours. My bigger concern is the autonomous ships. Some tugs are even being controlled remotely. Just like drones these things have a captain who sits in a chair and pilots the thing from hundreds or thousands of miles away. Nobody onboard. This is going to make distress response even more sketchy in the very near future. By and large the vast majority of pros are happy to lend assistance. I may be somewhat pessimistic about the good will we can expect remaining forever. Let's hope that the worst we get is being called a WAFI. The other option is even more scary, nobody to call us anything.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by 30yearslater

I'm hoping this is indeed the case. One containership captain (Master Unlimited) and one tankerman (Master Unlimiited) who sail with me have called it a day due to ....the constant stress..

I can identify with that ... sent my employers a 'not coming back' email 13 years ago come April....

[Methersgate]

I don’t think autonomous deep sea ships are going to happen.

Apart from pirates, who would think all their Christmases had come at once, apart from viruses (Maersk Line were shut down for two days at an uninsured cost of US$300 million by the Notpetya virus intended by Russia to infect a Ukrainian accounting software package, and only saved because their Ghana office had a power cut so was off line, and had the last un- infected hard drive in their global system) and apart from GPS spoofing ( ships in the Black Sea recently found themselves sailing up mountains) things break down and need fixing. Ask the nearest marine engineer how many alarms he gets in a day.

[ilenart]

Originally Posted by Methersgate

I work for the company that owns the TIANFU (I have to write her name as one word because the board software thinks I am trying to write a naughty word rather than the Mandarin word for “luck”... her name is “Heavenly Luck” and Susie Goodall might find it appropriate!)

(Her decks are probably full of wind farm turbine blades so nowhere to park a Rustler 36 even if they could have lifted her.)

On the question of whether there is insurance for the costs of the deviation to rescue Susie Goodall - yes there is. This particular ship is in the West of England P&I Club. I don’t manage this ship but I do know the team who do. I spoke yesterday to the West of England’s senior underwriter in Hong Kong, he happens to be an old friend, and he confirmed that there is no problem with them picking up the bill - see below.

The shipowning companies asked the P&I Clubs to cover this at the time of the Vietnamese “boat people” and the Clubs amended their rules accordingly.

How often does this happen? In my forty year career it has happened to ships that I manage seven times. Two yachts, three sinking merchant ships and two refugee boats one of which had sixty aboard. There’s no difference in the way they are all treated.

How much does it cost?

Might be between ten and twenty thousand dollars, or thereabouts. But as you will gather, it’s not unusual to deviate to pick people up. I had an American friend (who unusually was a Master in a British company and who incidentally sailed round the world in his Westsail 32 after he retired) who, as Master of offshore supply vessels in the Gulf of Thailand, picked up ten thousand people (this was the era of the Vietnamese “boat people”) and jokingly asked when the RNLI were going to come up with his medal! An extreme case, but the procedures are well established, there is no difference between a single handed yachtswoman and a Syrian refugee in an inflatable dinghy, and, so far as any seaman is concerned, it might be him being picked up next time.

Now, on the question of claiming the money back:

Legally, there is no basis to do so under English law, because English law does not recognise the concept of "life salvage" - the Maritime Conventions Act states that it is the duty of seamen to save life at sea, and since a salvor must be "a volunteer" rather than being legally bound to help, there is no salvage claim for saving life. English law does not necessarily apply in the South Pacific but the TIANFU is a Hong Kong ship and the law of Hong Kong is the same on this point.

However, you can sometimes ask nicely. One of "my" ships picked up the crew of a Filipino log carrier that capsized off the coast of Papua New Guinea, three years ago, and rather than claim on our own P&I Club (which happened to be the West of England) I wrote to the Standard P&I Club, for whom I once worked, with which that ship had been "entered", and asked if they would do the decent thing, which they did. It being a small world, I know the owner of the logger socially, which may have helped.

On another occasion when I was working for the British outfit who employed me and my American friend mentioned above we deviated a big ship for over a thousand miles at high speed to pick up the crew of a US Coast Guard cutter, who had parked their ship much too firmly on a barren reef between New Caledonia and nowhere in particular. We sent the bill to the USCG, and got a nice letter back, thanking us for our efforts “which were in the finest traditions of the sea,” but no dosh. So I commanded that copies of the letter be framed on the wheelhouse bulkheads of all our ships calling at US ports, and we had no trouble from the USCG for a good long time...

Here's the exact passage from the West of England Rule Book. Other Clubs have similar wordings:
Quote:
Section 5
Diversion expenses
The net cost to the Member (over and above the expenses that would have been
incurred but for the diversion or delay) of fuel, insurance, wages, stores, provisions
and port charges:-

(a) during a diversion of the insured vessel reasonably undertaken for the purpose of
search and rescue of persons at sea or for the purpose of securing the necessary
treatment ashore of sick or injured persons aboard the insured vessel, or of landing
stowaways, refugees or persons saved at sea or dead bodies; or

(b) while awaiting a substitute for a sick or injured seaman who has been landed
ashore for treatment, if in the opinion of the Managers it was reasonable to
engage such a substitute.
Unquote


From what I have read here, Susie Goodall was just unlucky; her boat was well prepared and she did all the right things. To have the Monitor safety tube break followed by the series drogue bridle failing was really rotten luck.

Oh, and if you want to know what the professionals think, don’t read GCaptain. It’s full of posers. You could ask El Penguino. He’s one.

Thanks Methersgate, did'nt realise this. I work in the oil and gas industry and when we had an incident one time we paid for all the vessels that attended, however we never claimed on insurance. However this was over 20 years ago and probably impacted by high deductibles and self insurance.

Ilenart

[boatman61]

Achh.!!! Its just the same old "My Tax $$$'s" whingers crawling outa the woodwork..
A lack of understanding of the 'Seamans Code'..
Today its you.. Tomorrow it could be me..

[Methersgate]

Originally Posted by ilenart

Thanks Methersgate, did'nt realise this. I work in the oil and gas industry and when we had an incident one time we paid for all the vessels that attended, however we never claimed on insurance. However this was over 20 years ago and probably impacted by high deductibles and self insurance.

Ilenart

Thanks Ilenart. Yes, different rules in the oil patch. As you say, high deductibles and a generally “knock for knock” approach. And I agree with your point about schedules, particularly for a “semi - liner” like the TIANFU. Wind farms and factories are not built on the “just in time” system! She isn’t quite tramping but she will look around for any cargo to get her home for the next load of wind-farm turbines, towers and blades.

Fully cellular container ships (“box boats”) try to hold tighter schedules, but if my lot are all on time we remark on the fact - port delays, typhoons and hurricanes can put even a big box boat out by one or two days.

[30yearslater]

Thanks again Methersgate. Really solid information. Ilenart that was one funny comment. Made my day. Again, glad some traditions just won't die. Ms. Goodall certainly pi$$ed off old Poseidon somehow to have so many things go wrong leading to such a calamity. Great to read she was OK and still kept herself together. I think we can agree that it is a testament to her resilience to be able to maintain her composure despite what I consider the worst thing a sailor can experience.