Sad end to an Irwin 52 in Panama City Bch bay

[Exile]

Boat brand is but one of many factors, and imo shouldn't be overemphasized. This is especially so if it's an older boat. There are also often variances in build quality within brands. But generally speaking, I would rather purchase a brand with a lesser rep that has been maintained properly than a more expensive brand that has been neglected.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Catalina smile is the gap between hull and keel but at least it doesn’t fall off like with some other boats. I mix some brands up so correct me ifI’m wrong but I believe it is Bavaria that looses their keels?
Beneteau are Bendy (but okay) and Hunter are flimsy as well.

Built like a tank: Contest, Halberg Rassy, Swan, Oyster. Most of these are too heavy for my liking.

Coming to your aid.

Bavaria did have some accidents, if I remember well the remembered and repeated case was a Bavaria Match 42. Then at least one more (a 390 boat).

Further down the road we had a Beneteau First 40.7. At least one sunk and problems found at the same spots on others of the same series.

There were also reports of some charter grade Jeanneau ex keel. And then also J-boats, I think.

elsewhere the picture is not much brighter either:
" ...,

a Vand den Stadt 45,
a Sweden yacht 42,
a Fast 42,
a Maxi 110,
a Max Fun 35,
a Comet 45,
a Davidson 50,
...."

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2...s-falling-off/

On the upper shelf, an Oyster lost one (big new boat, I think named Polina Star) driving the Oyster company to the edge of the hole. (I believe the company sank soon after the boat sank).

Etc.

Some brands seen more resilient to keel shedding: Hoek, Huisman, Swan, PS, Valiant, Morris, Rustler, Dashew, Norlin, Catana ;-)

Imho the cases fall between poor maintenance and poor design (or poor build, or both).

Quality boats, well maintained, mostly tend to keep their keels (with a notable exception of that one Oyster).

In times of Covid, nothing, absolutely nothing beats talking about sinking boats.

b.

[MicHughV]

interestingly, in 35 years of sailing, I have had some " near" sinking moments myself....not from hull or keel failure but (1) hose rupture (2) prop shaft getting lose from flange and exiting the boat and (3) packing gland around rudder shaft disappearing.
the amount of water that can come thru' a 1.5" hole will amaze you....and you'll not likely know it is happening until you notice water over the floorboards...by which time, the bilge pump is overwhelmed.....batteries have shorted out...etc...and you will have several 100 gallons of seawater swishing around.

it becomes a fire drill at that point.....first objective....where the hell is the water coming from ??....difficult to ascertain under the circumstances....but you better find it....quick !!!!

I have since learned to fit an alarm to the bilge pump....the second it goes off, I am alerted by an incredibly load shrieking sound, that the bilge pump is being activated..and I need to find out why !!!

In the Irwin case, I suspect the owner was busy keeping the boat upright, while drama was playing out below....

another tactic I use now when going offshore, I close off all seacocks I don't need, keeping only engine, sink and head open, this way I know right away which are open and need to be closed asap, but the alarm is my friend. My recommendation to any boat going offshore....fit a bilge alarm !!!

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I have since learned to fit an alarm to the bilge pump....the My recommendation to any boat going offshore....fit a bilge alarm !!!

I agree. And also, as excessive as it may seem, fit enough large pumps to keep up with a failure of the largest and deepest underwater fitting (seacock, shaft, transducer, etc.). And figure that out based on a real world performance figure for the pumps, which may only be 50 or 60 percent of the ideal rating.

That way, when the alarm goes off, you have more time to find the source of the water and do something about it. And you'll have less water blocking your view while you work, plus a better chance of resolving the issue before the batteries are flooded.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I agree. And also, as excessive as it may seem, fit enough large pumps to keep up with a failure of the largest and deepest underwater fitting (seacock, shaft, transducer, etc.). And figure that out based on a real world performance figure for the pumps, which may only be 50 or 60 percent of the ideal rating.

That way, when the alarm goes off, you have more time to find the source of the water and do something about it. And you'll have less water blocking your view while you work, plus a better chance of resolving the issue before the batteries are flooded.

I'll third the alarm idea.

Curious why they don't put batteries higher? They don't weigh that much, especially relative to everything else in a monohull. In my cat they're high enough that the stern would nearly be underwater by the time it reached them, literally 3" below the deck.

[hpeer]

I’ve raised my batteries. They are under the nav seat, about 6” over the sole, top of batteries nearly 18” over sole. Below water line still but a lot of bilge and hull below them. HOWEVER, the alternator is only about 10” ger the sole so there is that.

What I don’t like but can’t change ATM is I have some bus bars under the sole. As a compromise I have coated them with liquid electrical tape. No idea how well that will work. Slow it down maybe. May do no good but can’t hurt.

The bilge alarm is appealing. On the list, again.

But also there was a boat lost due to a shorter alternator, in the Med I think, American couple. They would put the fire out but the short would reignite it. Hense some heavy duty fuses in the alternator and inverted feeds.

[hpeer]

It would be useful to make a list of the top 5 ways boats are lost and then focus on your boat to see how it stands up.

I’ll take a stab at a list, as a starter. No particular order. Subject to improvement.

1 Lost keel or grounding induced failure to keel/hull attachment.
2 Lost/inoperative rudder/steering. Rudder falls out and boat swamps through the hole. Rudder breaks a hole in the hull. Rudder breaks or shaft bends, can’t steer (Maybe #1?)
3 Fire or propane explosion.
4 Hull breach due collision.
5 Mast/rigging failure

So looking at our boat, as an assessment.
1 Keel boat, rudder and keel welded together. Not likely to come undone.
2 Rudder is on back of long full keel, well protected, shaft tube well above water line. Permanently attached Emergency filler. I could cut the steering cables off to free any snagle.
3 No propane, use Kerosene instead. We have 5 extinguishers including one in a deck locker. Need to add better way to treat engine room fire, Fire Ports?
4 steel hull
5 We had the rigging surveyed by professional riggers some years ago and may have it done again if I can find good ones locally. Waldron Rigging in the NorthernChesapeake did a bang up job.

[MicHughV]

bilge pumps are a somewhat questionable device to pump water out.....they can get clogged up easily....they can only run a limited time before batteries run low....their location means they have to pump against a head of water often thru' inadequate size discharge lines, bends....etc..etc..etc....having two or more, just sucks down the battery quicker......often times they don't run at all because wiring is corroded...float switches fail...etc..no maintenance....etc...any kind of junk, debris, etc, in the bilge will clog the pump...
if you can....start the engine...generator.....this will help keep the batteries up....

I've had to resort to frightened crew bailing with a bucket and operating a cockpit manual pump....people get tired quickly....even with adrenaline running at full steam...

The key is to find the leak...and then find a solution to plug the leak....even a temporary solution....this may require wading thru' water inside the boat, in the dark, yes, when you are tired, etc, happened to me......head for all the known thru-hulls...switch them all off, check the engine stuffing box .....etc....if a keel has fallen off....I'm not sure there is quick solution here...

in the meantime, better have a prepared ditch bag standing by....liferaft...dink...food, water, EPIRB, etc....if you or someone else has the time, you might be able to fire off a mayday.....if the radio hasn't shorted out...

Flashlights are an invaluable tool....have several around in key locations....you'll need them...waterproof one's are best...

You will eventually come to point where you know you've won the fight...or lost the fight...if the water inside start to go down.....or even maintained....you might have a fighting chance...if it keeps going up.....hmmmmm.....

Much can be avoided by fitting an alarm....check this monthly...bi-weekly...alarms can be wired to float switches, but a better arrangement is to have it's own water activated switch...my bilge alarm is my best friend....seriously, my best onboard friend !!

Trust me on this...I'm paranoid about this.....I check hoses, clamps, thru-hulls..etc...all the time....any little thing that concerns me gets rectified right there and then...even the cockpit drains.....yep..another source for a possible leak...stuffing box...rudder stuffing box...anywhere and anywhere water can get in....hatches....fittings...etc...

But an alarm....diligent maintenance....goes a long way here....a lot of people have likely never checked their bilge pump....if you have a pressured water system, a broken or lose pipe can empty a water tank.......so many things....check every thing !!!

Like I've said earlier, at sea, I only have the sink, head and engine intake valve open...I can reach these blindfolded...I know exactly where they are and what position the handle should be in...I can close them all in seconds...I make sure everyone on the boat knows where these are and how to close them

At sea, I constantly check the bilge....every hour....it's a ritual now....

This has been a lengthy oration......sorry...I have a long memory.....

[hpeer]

Number of through hills is another factor. I see some boats with an astounding number, over a dozen. We have 7 total. I can reach all easily. I hear stories of folks needing extension handle to operate the through hulls.

I didn’t include through hills in my list above, maybe I should have.

[MicHughV]

yeah...many things..my 2nd boat had a generator installed by a previous owner...right behind the engine over the stuffing box...it was next to impossible to get to that stuffing box...to make matters worse...the batteries were located in a box right under the sole...the far side on the engine...originally accessible from behind the engine....became inaccessible....once the generator was put in there....
the generator itself become inaccessible....I had to cut another opening just to be able to get to impellor...filter..etc...

many boats today, with all their a/c's, etc, have many, many thru-hulls...interestingly enough, I have taken some of those bronze seacocks apart to service them, that cone and also the inside body of the seacock can get pitted...you can close the seacock....but it will still let water thru.....I've been on boats where that bronze seacock was frozen solid...wide open...immoveable....

yep, the school of hard knocks....been dere...dun dat....most neophyte sailors....like me at the time...would never think to check those things....but I learned......yep, sure did learn

[Chotu]

Been there too. Had a bunch of non sailors out on my second boat. A 30’ O’day.

Everyone is having fun and enjoying themselves. Things felt a little sluggish motoring back. (Weekend boating, schedules). So I look down below and the cabin soles are floating around. Uh oh.

I ask someone to take the helm and casually go down below to figure things out. After a bit, I saw the water was coming from a ruptured fresh water hose AFTER the impeller. Thankfully, it was longer than necessary. I was able to cut out the rupture and reattach.

The bilge pump eventually got all that water out. No lasting damage. No frightened guests who had no idea what a sketchy situation it was.

Now, I always fit a high water alarm in the bilge.

On my current boat, the catamaran, there are no thruhulls and all essential equipment is at bride deck level. Water tight bulkheads create 6 different compartments in the boat as well. I take this stuff very seriously.

[MicHughV]

oh yeah...."seriously" is an understatement here....."extremely serious".....yeah...that would fit me...

[Steve Bean]

I sailed on two Irwin 52's from U.S. Virgin Islands northward in early 1980's. Experienced oilcanning in head seas. On both of them the centerboard lowered itself due to corrosion of the stainless wire rope at the board.

[zboss]

Cabo Ricos are also built very tough. During a hurricane in the Bahamas back in the 80s there was a charter boat company running CRs out of Hatchet Bay in Eleuthera. All the boats were wrecked/sunk and with a little work were back out sailing and are probably still going strong today.

[acem]

Did anyone find out what happened to the boat?

If the sheets jam in such a situation you take your knife and cut them. However its unlikely both the Genoa and mizzen sheets both jammed at the same time.

Thx-Ace