When--exactly--are cats faster?

[Bill Gibbs]

Cats are not inherently faster than monos. But my 47’ Schionning cat is a lot faster than your Amel and the Lagoon, on all points of sail. Key performance factors are weight, sail area, and waterline. I weigh 13.5k pounds. Less than half the Lagoon weight. I carry more sail. It’s like totally different animals. But I don’t have 4 cabins, 4 heads, a flying bridge, AC, washer, dryer, etc. I race and use VMS software to rate multis. I get beat by faster monos all the time. Just not by slower ones.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Bill Gibbs

Cats are not inherently faster than monos. But my 47’ Schionning cat is a lot faster than your Amel and the Lagoon, on all points of sail. Key performance factors are weight, sail area, and waterline. I weigh 13.5k pounds. Less than half the Lagoon weight. I carry more sail. It’s like totally different animals. But I don’t have 4 cabins, 4 heads, a flying bridge, AC, washer, dryer, etc. I race and use VMS software to rate multis. I get beat by faster monos all the time. Just not by slower ones.

What are some examples of monos that beat you?

I’m very interested in knowing about some performance monohulls. Ones that can beat a Schionning 47.

[Happ]

There are lots of reasons. Maybe the don’t care about going fast? Maybe the were having a really nice meal on a nice flat day? Maybe they have old sails? Maybe they aren’t great sailors? The list goes on.

[mfw]

The ARC has shown that the cats in cruising trim are similar to the same size monohull
Maybe they don't want to break the boat, lots of loads increasing when you are going faster.
I also sail a super maramu.
I have sailed, 50 ft Simpson slipstream, 8000kg that was fast. Trying to reef in the night doing 17kn is challenging.
Lagoon 421 like the amel, not as solid.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Bill Gibbs

Cats are not inherently faster than monos. But my 47’ Schionning cat is a lot faster than your Amel and the Lagoon, on all points of sail. Key performance factors are weight, sail area, and waterline. I weigh 13.5k pounds. Less than half the Lagoon weight. I carry more sail. It’s like totally different animals. But I don’t have 4 cabins, 4 heads, a flying bridge, AC, washer, dryer, etc. I race and use VMS software to rate multis. I get beat by faster monos all the time. Just not by slower ones.

Very nice.

https://youtu.be/KKb_djymvLQ

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by mfw

The ARC has shown that the cats in cruising trim are similar to the same size monohull
...

The ARC is predominantly a downwind slide - a raft with decent freeboard would perform as well. Perhaps the World ARC sees enough varying conditions so as to be meaningful for comparing boats?

But as long as sailing downwind across the Atlantic is not the only sailing you plan to do, stop using the ARC statistics as any sort of meaningful measure of how a particular boat sails.

Originally Posted by mfw

..
I have sailed, 50 ft Simpson slipstream, 8000kg that was fast. Trying to reef in the night doing 17kn is challenging…

Challenging how? The platform is level and broad, the speed decreases while the mainsheet is eased for reefing, and even an autopilot in most conditions can keep a steady course.

I can imagine it was unfamiliar and with the noise and lack of good visibility might have made it feel uncomfortable for someone new to that kind of boat. That’s OK, you felt what you felt.

Note that for a 50’ performance cat 17 knots boat speed is within the normal speed range (assuming reaching). It is like going 9 knots on your Super Maramu.

[Bill Gibbs]

What are some examples of monos that beat you?

I’m very interested in knowing about some performance monohulls. Ones that can beat a Schionning 47.

First I misspoke a bit, my boat is a Schionning GF 1400, so closer to 46' long. As for faster monohulls, in this year's Newport to Ensenada race, about 120 nm, mostly downwind, over 100 boats, I think 4 monos had faster elapsed times.

Peligroso, a Kernan 68
Artemis, a Botin 65
Good Energy, an R/P 63
Rio 100, a Blakewell White 100

[Toys_with_time]

Originally Posted by Bill Gibbs

First I misspoke a bit, my boat is a Schionning GF 1400, so closer to 46' long. As for faster monohulls, in this year's Newport to Ensenada race, about 120 nm, mostly downwind, over 100 boats, I think 4 monos had faster elapsed times.

Peligroso, a Kernan 68
Artemis, a Botin 65
Good Energy, an R/P 63
Rio 100, a Blakewell White 100

All much longer than yours by 50% plus so not surprising plus Kernan 68 is ultra light racing sled, Botin a 100% racing yacht etc. I have both raced on and against Schionnings including GF 1500 and they are quick boats. Always enjoy in a mixed fleet going past the monos to windward but there is also a lot to be said for doing a relaxed 5 knots instead of a wet 25 and having time to enjoy the scenery.
TwT

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Bill Gibbs

First I misspoke a bit, my boat is a Schionning GF 1400, so closer to 46' long. As for faster monohulls, in this year's Newport to Ensenada race, about 120 nm, mostly downwind, over 100 boats, I think 4 monos had faster elapsed times.

Peligroso, a Kernan 68
Artemis, a Botin 65
Good Energy, an R/P 63
Rio 100, a Blakewell White 100

Oh!!!! Very big boats and pure racing machines. That makes a lot more sense. I was thinking there were some really fast 50-55 ft monos out there beating your boat. And that was interesting to say the least.

[Tupaia]

I once delivered a 44 ft cat that the owners had owned from new for 2-3 years. The last reef had never been shaken out. The owner was ecstatic when we did, first time they had ever seen double digit speeds. Astounded that a further 2 knots could be gleaned just by playing the out-haul that was not even visible in the stack-pack.



Many owners, especially it is sad to say condocat owners, cannot sail or are just too scarred to experiment. Trimming a big unresponsive cat is as much down to patience and instrumentation as it is to sailing skill.

[Bill Gibbs]

Oh!!!! Very big boats and pure racing machines. That makes a lot more sense. I was thinking there were some really fast 50-55 ft monos out there beating your boat.

In all fairness, this particular race had great wind, 15-22 TWS most of the race, only dying at the end. In 2020, the wind was much lighter, taking us an extra 6 hours to finish, and having 15 monos finish in front of us, the smallest a Santa Cruz 52, still a race focused boat. Our advantage varies with TWA and TWS.

[ozsailer]

I think I can best answer your question why your amel 53 was in front of the Lagoon 450. If you take two pieces of rope, one 6 foot long and one two meters long. Place them 4 KM apart. Tie one end of one rope to end of the other rope. The question then is how do you get one end of the rope to tie to the other one 4Km away. The answer - Who gives a flying frigg !!!!!!!



Ozsailer

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Chotu

What are some examples of monos that beat you?

I’m very interested in knowing about some performance monohulls. Ones that can beat a Schionning 47.

We can beat it on a good day… but we got 64’ WLL in light winds and plane in 20+kts. Upwind is weak spot for both…

Sloops probably can beat it upwind but they will need to be at least 50’ long and in race mode…

[cal40john]

It's pointless to try to compare boat speeds without knowing there are equivalent crews onboard each boat, both in the same racing mindset.

The OP said he had done teaching. I have taught and given our club's ratings to sail for quite awhile in the past. I most certainly have come across many people with prior experience that didn't know sail trim beyond the crudest basics and didn't care to learn more. Their priorities for sailing were different.

Didn't the OP ever come across this in teaching?

I raced Hobie sx18 beach cats for some years. The first Hobie with a class legal spinnaker. Hobies are about as strict a one design as you're going to find. One boat in our fleet didn't buy a spinnaker, he was there to sail with his family. Two others had spinnakers but constantly lost to the guy without a spinnaker. We tried to help out these two as they complained about losing all the time. After a few minutes each time they said it's all too complicated and they didn't want to hear it anymore. Still complained about losing though.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by cal40john

It's pointless to try to compare boat speeds without knowing there are equivalent crews onboard each boat, both in the same racing mindset.

The OP said he had done teaching. I have taught and given our club's ratings to sail for quite awhile in the past. I most certainly have come across many people with prior experience that didn't know sail trim beyond the crudest basics and didn't care to learn more. Their priorities for sailing were different.

Didn't the OP ever come across this in teaching?

I raced Hobie sx18 beach cats for some years. The first Hobie with a class legal spinnaker. Hobies are about as strict a one design as you're going to find. One boat in our fleet didn't buy a spinnaker, he was there to sail with his family. Two others had spinnakers but constantly lost to the guy without a spinnaker. We tried to help out these two as they complained about losing all the time. After a few minutes each time they said it's all too complicated and they didn't want to hear it anymore. Still complained about losing though.

Lol… I taught kids in Optimist dinghies… I thought they would learn eventually as they grow up; guess they didn’t