Skipper's Duty Towards Refugees

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by avb3

Perhaps if we asked the professor his solution at this point?

P.S. I've always had a thing for red heads. Ginger. Definitely. And half of Cruisers Forum doesn't have a clue what we are referencing.

When something on my boat needs fixing - Mary Ann.

A trip to the sack - either (probably with way different experiences).

Ah - Gilligans Island - how can we forget?

[itnem80]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

30%? 131 000 da. But to you that is zero to you there 'all' illegals who become criminals.

I love your statement, 'I'm not a racist ..... But' There's that BUT.

AND your suggestion that the remaining 319 000 are illegal, let alone 'criminals' is simply false. They made applications, which were not accepted. This does not then make then Illegal or criminals!

So you are arguing for open borders everywhere, let's let everybody into your house, offer them food and shelter for I don't even want to think how long until they file an application, someone reviews it and takes a decision. All this for more than 2 out of every 3 people that should have never come in the first place and now you have to pay for their flight back from wherever they came from, assuming you are actually able to send them back.

This sounds like a disaster to me, not a solution to a problem

The remaining 319,000 are by definition illegals, they enter Europe without having the right to do so and after evaluation some government official has decided that indeed they have no right to stay in Europe. And yes, I'm making the assumption that a good percentage of them will be forced to become criminals if they are able to remain in Europe.

It's easy to make statements like yours when you are not affected by the consequences, would you open your house to these people?

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by itnem80

So you are arguing for open borders everywhere, let's let everybody into your house, offer them food and shelter for I don't even want to think how long until they file an application, someone reviews it and takes a decision. All this for more than 2 out of every 3 people that should have never come in the first place and now you have to pay for their flight back from wherever they came from, assuming you are actually able to send them back.

This sounds like a disaster to me, not a solution to a problem

The remaining 319,000 are by definition illegals, they enter Europe without having the right to do so and after evaluation some government official has decided that indeed they have no right to stay in Europe. And yes, I'm making the assumption that a good percentage of them will be forced to become criminals if they are able to remain in Europe.

It's easy to make statements like yours when you are not affected by the consequences, would you open your house to these people?

Well, I haven't raised what I'm 'advocating' because this wasn't initially a thread on refugees, but yes, ALL refugees should be received, absolutely. by definition refugees need help by fellow man.

And by 'definition' the remainder are NOT illegals! Your Wrong
Under the United Nations Convention on refugees, persons who enter a member nation by whatever means are NOT to be treated as 'criminals' but are to have their claims legitimately assessed. Those who's claims are found to be substantiated are to be assisted in resettling in humanitarian programs from member nations. Those who's claims are not substantiated are returned to their place of births as long as it's safe for that to occur. So by 'definition' they are NOT illegal. Not under international law anyway. Google the convention and read up on it.

Of course, if they take off and/ or make no claim to assylum, then yes they are illegal. But there not illegal simply because they have their claims rejected. That's simply rediculous. The great majority of 'illegals' in our country are over stayers. Usually their visa's have expired.

[Jammer Six]

Sometimes, particularly after reading a long post, I have to wonder: how can that really be easier than critical thought?

[Jammer Six]

Originally Posted by itnem80

I don't want to get into a philosophical debate on what's right and what's wrong, there are several activities that are clearly wrong from any point of view, stealing, robbing, assaulting, raping, etc.

Then why did you post in a philosophical discussion of what's right and wrong?

After careful study, I am quite certain I understand your position with a great deal of precision.

Thank you for clarifying it and making it plain.

[itnem80]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Well, I haven't raised what I'm 'advocating' because this wasn't initially a thread on refugees, but yes, ALL refugees should be received, absolutely. by definition refugees need help by fellow man.

And by 'definition' the remainder are NOT illegals! Your Wrong
Under the United Nations Convention on refugees, persons who enter a member nation by whatever means are NOT to be treated as 'criminals' but are to have their claims legitimately assessed. Those who's claims are found to be substantiated are to be assisted in resettling in humanitarian programs from member nations. Those who's claims are not substantiated are returned to their place of births as long as it's safe for that to occur. So by 'definition' they are NOT illegal. Not under international law anyway. Google the convention and read up on it.

Of course, if they take off and/ or make no claim to assylum, then yes they are illegal. But there not illegal simply because they have their claims rejected. That's simply rediculous. The great majority of 'illegals' in our country are over stayers. Usually their visa's have expired.

I know the law and I'm saying it does not work and also costs the taxpayers lots of money that could be spent in improving the local economies, specially seeing where those are going in the last few years. Plain and simple you don't understand the issue here, if your profile location is correct (Tasmania) you don't have this type of problems where you live.

The refugees idea is a noble one and I agree with the principle, unfortunately as it's common with any government activity it's the execution that is a complete failure. You just don't get it because you have never lived the consequences of this poor execution. It's way too easy to hold the moral high ground from the comfort of your home when your claims do not affect your life.
Try to have your taxes raised to pay for hosting these people while you get no help from your own government if you are in trouble, try to not be able to take a walk in your neighborhood after dark because you are afraid, then let's talk again and see if your moral high ground still stands.
You are right in principle, you just have no clue about what's going on in the Med.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by itnem80

I know the law and I'm saying it does not work and also costs the taxpayers lots of money that could be spent in improving the local economies, specially seeing where those are going in the last few years. Plain and simple you don't understand the issue here, if your profile location is correct (Tasmania) you don't have this type of problems where you live.

The refugees idea is a noble one and I agree with the principle, unfortunately as it's common with any government activity it's the execution that is a complete failure. You just don't get it because you have never lived the consequences of this poor execution. It's way too easy to hold the moral high ground from the comfort of your home when your claims do not affect your life.
Try to have your taxes raised to pay for hosting these people while you get no help from your own government if you are in trouble, try to not be able to take a walk in your neighborhood after dark because you are afraid, then let's talk again and see if your moral high ground still stands.
You are right in principle, you just have no clue about what's going on in the Med.

So you are for low moral and less taxes Or did I miss something

[itnem80]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

So you are for low moral and less taxes Or did I miss something

I'm for more realism and less idealism.
Not all that looks good on paper is actually good in reality, when you see all the negative externalities that your good idea failed to consider

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by itnem80

I know the law and I'm saying it does not work and also costs the taxpayers lots of money that could be spent in improving the local economies, specially seeing where those are going in the last few years. Plain and simple you don't understand the issue here, if your profile location is correct (Tasmania) you don't have this type of problems where you live.

The refugees idea is a noble one and I agree with the principle, unfortunately as it's common with any government activity it's the execution that is a complete failure. You just don't get it because you have never lived the consequences of this poor execution. It's way too easy to hold the moral high ground from the comfort of your home when your claims do not affect your life.
Try to have your taxes raised to pay for hosting these people while you get no help from your own government if you are in trouble, try to not be able to take a walk in your neighborhood after dark because you are afraid, then let's talk again and see if your moral high ground still stands.
You are right in principle, you just have no clue about what's going on in the Med.

Plain and simple - Tasmania is an Australian state and Australia is well aware of refugees, migrants, illegal migrants etc. In one form or another, we have had these people here for the past 200 years. Almost all Australians hold a view on these subjects but as you would expect that view varies a lot

2nd point, it is very easy to critical of the refugees but IMO, it is better to be critical after you have walked a mile in their shoes, until then, a consistent moral position is warranted.

[carstenb]

Guys,

A friendly little wink from the Mod pen. Let's try to keep this thread on course. It's about a skippers responsibility when confronted with the type of situation described.

There have been some very good posts on that - let's try to keep the thread on track

[Wotname]

Hmm... I think the skipper's responsibility (or at least his actions) to the OP's situation will be largely governed by his / her viewpoint on the legal & moral issues at stake.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by carstenb

Guys,

A friendly little wink from the Mod pen. Let's try to keep this thread on course. It's about a skippers responsibility when confronted with the type of situation described.

There have been some very good posts on that - let's try to keep the thread on track

Would you like me to say something on 'turtles'?

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Rustic Charm

Would you like me to say something on 'turtles'?

Tortoises!

[Jammer Six]

Mary Ann FTW.

[Rustic Charm]

Originally Posted by weavis

Tortoises!

Now Weavis, this is a sailing forum for sailers, not a 4wd forum for land lovers.