Leopard 46 lost in French Polynesia - stunning rescue pictures

[taxwizz]

Originally Posted by Rorzech

This might be a good time to call Navionics and explain this to them and maybe some of these accidents will stop.

AGREED !

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by taxwizz

AGREED !

But the Navionic chart seems very much like the official charts, and not inaccurate in this position.

What do you expect them to do?

Jim

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by taxwizz

AGREED !

I posted before my Navionics view. What's wrong with it - it shows the reef? As Jim says, what more are they supposed to do? Here it is again:

[jamhass]

Originally Posted by taxwizz

AGREED !

I once had a long conversation with Jeppeson (CMap folks) on this issue. Long and short of it was (and I am sure still is) ...

They must use "official" charting data or face legal and liability issues. They know of issues underlying the available official sources but are seriously constrained. They really have no choice in the matter.

However, as responsible navigators, we do have a number of resources that we privately can take advantage of. Google Earth, and other sources are readily manipulated to provide independent and properly geocoordinated imagery that is easily overlaid on electronic charts allowing the user to readily assess the accuracy of his own electronic resources.

It IS unfortunate that commercial sources are constrained so, but that is simply a fact of life. It remains the navigator's responsibility to ensure that he/she is using properly updated resources and to verify the completeness and accuracy of those resources.

[SV DestinyAscen]

I don't want to sound like an echo, but again piloting a boat with a chart plotter is like driving a car with a GPS.

If there's rain and the bridge is washed over, do you keep driving just because the GPS says so? Or if there is a detour do you ignore it and run into the construction ppl?

No. You use your senses and all information available to you.


I'm not unsympathetic to these people, but the only fault that can be attributed to navionics is perhaps their unusual method of showing depth changes. But given these folk's long passage experience, should have known and been familiar.

I can only think of one situation where charts bears more responsibility, such as marking a suggested entry bearing that directly leads a boat into danger.

This didn't happen.

Recreational charts are also created for different purposes than commercial or official charts. Commercial shipping don't deviate much from shipping channels and visit ports able to accept them. When a bad commercial captain tries to cut a corner? They ground the ship and get introuble .

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

Actually the navigator didn't even know the reef was there let alone any 'gaps', but he did take responsibility for the grounding as you say...

The official report is here for anyone that's interested, and I do believe quite a bit of it is relevant to the Cruising fraternity if they are inclined to read it (80 pages ) and I also believe it's no accident that AMSA (Australian Maritime Safety Authority) re-issued Marine Notice 2017/06 on the subject of official charts, seeing as it's the same area...

Link to official report as it's to big for me to post....
http://www.volvooceanrace.com/static...march-2015.pdf

AMSA Notice....

That report is awesome. In particular, two appendices are worth reading.

• Appendix F Recommended Guidelines for Passage Planning and Racing Using Electronic Charts (generally applicable to cruising)

• Appendix G Safety Equipment Proposals – Vestas Wind Crew Recommendations (real-life experience with gear, processes and training for abandoning ship)

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by jamhass

I once had a long conversation with Jeppeson (CMap folks) on this issue. Long and short of it was (and I am sure still is) ...

They must use "official" charting data or face legal and liability issues. They know of issues underlying the available official sources but are seriously constrained. They really have no choice in the matter.

However, as responsible navigators, we do have a number of resources that we privately can take advantage of. Google Earth, and other sources are readily manipulated to provide independent and properly geocoordinated imagery that is easily overlaid on electronic charts allowing the user to readily assess the accuracy of his own electronic resources.

It IS unfortunate that commercial sources are constrained so, but that is simply a fact of life. It remains the navigator's responsibility to ensure that he/she is using properly updated resources and to verify the completeness and accuracy of those resources.

Guys, the Navionics chart wasn't wrong. It shows the reef in the correct position. It agrees well with the google earth photo.

Re Jeppson (and Naviaonics) Of course they use official data as basis. Do you think they have independent surveys of the whole world? Not a chance! They buy or otherwise acquire the data from various Hydrographic offices around the civilized world and present it in their proprietary idiom. There are differences in presentation between the various companies, but in general they all rely upon the same data.

Jim

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

benkay -- thanks for posting those three charts. I think what Navionics is guilty of is . . . ambiguous color-coding. The shade of blue used to delineate the reef area doesn't convey any sense of danger, and no depths are listed numerically. And in some places (like farther north near Avamoa Pass and Avapehi Pass) that same blue seems to be used where there are navigable depths. The other charts do a much better job of visually conveying that there's a reef.

On the tablets you can alter the colors according to depths, quite easy to do using settings.

[a64pilot]

All I add is they are not really constrained by official data, if they were then Navionics would not have Sonar Charts, where by I guess it's called crowd sourcing charts are supposedly corrected. I say supposedly cause my experience is it's often wrong.

A few years ago not long after I got my Garmin 740S in our little dive boat, we were in the bay at Panama City Fl. Wife said, we are about to run aground, I looked at the plotter and said it says we have plenty of water, wife said look down. We ran aground soft sand, no damage, except maybe to my ego. So much for the infallibility of 21st Century charts.
I called Sea Tow and got into a discussion about what hard aground meant, about that time Jim Bob shows up in his pontoon boat and pulled us off.
Jim Bob is generic term for Southern Good ole boy.

[captaingregger]

OK, folks, we've all had our say with the armchair QBing. Now let's rally around this family and raise some money to help them out.

I am traveling on a work trip right now and I've never set up a crowd-funding campaign before so I don't know how to do it or I'd start the process.

Someone set it up and let's help these guys out.

We can all easily contribute something.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by captaingregger

OK, folks, we've all had our say with the armchair QBing. Now let's rally around this family and raise some money to help them out.

I am traveling on a work trip right now and I've never set up a crowd-funding campaign before so I don't know how to do it or I'd start the process.

Someone set it up and let's help these guys out.

We can all easily contribute something.

One has already been created....

https://www.gofundme.com/helprescuethetribe

[Cherod]

I am with you on this capy , providing they need our help , perhaps they are £ € $ ¥ ( whatever currency they deal in ) millionaires and a new / replacement cat would require nothing more than the release of some Riotinto (e.g.) shares , otherwise I would be very willing to give some ( modest) assistance .

[NoahTreat]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

All I add is they are not really constrained by official data, if they were then Navionics would not have Sonar Charts, where by I guess it's called crowd sourcing charts are supposedly corrected. I say supposedly cause my experience is it's often wrong.

A few years ago not long after I got my Garmin 740S in our little dive boat, we were in the bay at Panama City Fl. Wife said, we are about to run aground, I looked at the plotter and said it says we have plenty of water, wife said look down. We ran aground soft sand, no damage, except maybe to my ego. So much for the infallibility of 21st Century charts.
I called Sea Tow and got into a discussion about what hard aground meant, about that time Jim Bob shows up in his pontoon boat and pulled us off.
Jim Bob is generic term for Southern Good ole boy.

Couldn't you attribute that to the ever shifting sand bar?

[taxwizz]

Originally Posted by Cherod

I am with you on this capy , providing they need our help , perhaps they are £ € $ ¥ ( whatever currency they deal in ) millionaires and a new / replacement cat would require nothing more than the release of some Riotinto (e.g.) shares , otherwise I would be very willing to give some ( modest) assistance .

And hopefully, with their next boat, they will not approach an area of reefs at 9 knots, at night, while sharing dinner below decks, while "Otto" drives.

[alansmith]

To the old salts who responded with their wisdom my many thanks. I think that night vision was compromised. I think having both motors running may have compromised his hearing of the surf. I think basic navigation of setting his way points Too close to the islands was a serious miscalculation. And even though they had experience, obviously, they didn't have enough experience to sail in an ocean full of islands. Insurance companies are not stupid. They are business people. They have seen too many of these accidents in recent years. They do not want to have to pay for People's lack of experience. I don't know what their boat cost. But roughly I would say it's north of a half a million. That is a big hit for that family no matter how wealthy or poor they are.

Terrible things happen to good people all the time all over the world. As I said before they were very lucky people. I will contribute to their funding. I think we all learned some very valuable lessons from their tragedy. I doubt if I ever will cross oceans in my small boat. But with a lifetime of reading sea stories I know that you must be extremely vigilant when near land. How many times have we seen sailors fall asleep and end up on the rocks. How many people are we seeing make navigation errors due to putting to much faith in the chart and not reconciling the reality of nearby land?

God bless them. They got off lucky.