Help Heaving to on my boat

[estarzinger]

Quite a few 435's were ketches, and they hove to like perfect ducks with just the mizzen up, sheeted a little to one side.

But you don't mention a mizzen, so you may be one of the cutters (where the main is not all that big, and you may have roller main?). Thay are rather harder to heave to. And yes, you may need a single reef in 35kts to drive it up. Do realize that 35kts is really not all that strong, and it sounds like your waves may perhaps have been bigger/lumpier driven by stronger winds some distance away . . . which does make heaving to a bit harder.

Honestly in those conditions we rarely hove to, instead just sailed somewhat slowly with staysail alone, autopilot steering, on course. That (speed reduction) would reduce the motion enough to ease sea sickness enough.

And congrats about getting to Chile. It is terrific. You will get a lot out of it. But there is hard weather and just take it slow and carefully until you get comfortable.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by StuM

Two consecutive posts above:

> Typically, the helm should be hard to windward

and then

> and helm hard to leeward

which is why I raised the still unanswered question of the OPs rudder position

Clearly the "helm hard to leeward" must be a carryover from tiller days when you would yell "helms to lee" (meaning you push the tiller to leeward) when tacking through the wind. Otherwise turning to leward would cause a jibe and I hope there are enough people on this forum who know this to ensure someone does not attempt something so dangerous. The physics involved are not complicated... at least when rough seas are not involved.

The basic physics... With some forward motion the rudder (turned to go to windward) turns the boat into the wind. As forward motion dies, the backed head-sail overcomes the rudder force and turns the bow off, which causes the main to catch more wind and drive the boat forward. Again as forward motion increases, the rudder turns the boat up into the wind and the boat slows... repeat.

[boatman61]

I find if the helm is more than 2/3rds to 3/4 over the rudder becomes pretty useless..
Main reefed down and centred.. backed jib furled to just enough to stop her going head to wind..
Rudder hard over creates to much dead water to my mind.. no bite.
But thats just me..

[Maka]

Zstine
A picture is worth a thousand words. Thank you.
Do you have one for a Ketch Rig ?

[TrentePieds]

Steve and Linda Dashew have a simply wonderful treatise - all 680-odd pages of it - on how to deal with the problems you describe in your opening post. It is called Surviving the Storm. I dare say Amazon could help out :-)

Though I much prefer to cross oceans in a 747, I think for those who see the matter differently, Surviving the Storm should be required reading PRIOR to casting off :-)

There are some boats, particularly "modern" ones (Dashew's designs not excepted I would think), that simply don't heave to very well. That's just an unintended consequence of the design idiom that stresses other desiderata over the ability to heave to. Simplified to the point of the ridiculous it comes to this: Full-keeled boats that sail on their mains heave to adequately. Fin-keeled boats that sail on their headsl(s) not so much.

Heaving to is a technique from days of yore that has been carried into modern times in the nature of an "urban legend". It is a truth universally acknowledged, I do believe, that heaving to is appropriate only in a few very specific circumstances. Perhaps the interplay between your boat's design and the antics of wind and wave, at the time you were struggling, did not add up to one of those specific circumstances.

Give Dashew a butcher's :-)!

TP

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I find if the helm is more than 2/3rds to 3/4 over the rudder becomes pretty useless.. "

Uhm... in all humilty, could it have been better states as "I find a rudder deflection of more than 35 to 45 degrees makes the rudder pretty useless" :-)?

The appropriate deflection expressed (in degrees) will, of course, vary from boat to boat, even for boats of the same type and model.

[captmikem]

Originally Posted by StuM

Two consecutive posts above:

> Typically, the helm should be hard to windward

and then

> and helm hard to leeward

which is why I raised the still unanswered question of the OPs rudder position

may be terminalagy.. hard a lee ..or the helm hard down to leeward comes from the old days of putting the tiller to leeward which is still used today. this brings the bow "up" or to windward.

in any case, you want to turn the bow INTO or towards the wind.

M

[Alan Mighty]

Originally Posted by zstine

Clearly the "helm hard to leeward" must be a carryover from tiller days when you would yell "helms to lee" (meaning you push the tiller to leeward) when tacking through the wind. Otherwise turning to leward would cause a jibe and I hope there are enough people on this forum who know this to ensure someone does not attempt something so dangerous.

My goodness. What a mess!

In English, since before the year 725, helm or helma has meant the handle of the tiller. The tiller being the lever used to turn the rudder.

"Helm's a lee" means the helm is down to leeward.

In 1929, a Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) conference was held The conferees agreed that since the introduction of steering wheels, steering orders had become confused. Some skippers ordered helm positions. Others ordered rudder positions. For example, "helm to starboard" means to point the bow of the boat to port. Steering wheels were installed so the bow pointed the way the wheel was turned. So the equivalent of "helm to starboard" was to turn the wheel to port. And if the ship had a transom-hung rudder, anyone looking over the stern would see the rudder to port.

So the 1929 SOLAS conference decided that orders should be given by the rudder, not the helm (or the wheel - some steersmen faced aft). So "right rudder" was the same as "starboard rudder" and meant put the rudder to starboard (meaning the aft end of the rudder, the bit you could see over the stern). That became the international standard, in force since 1933.

Please do not repeat this historical error. If a steering order is given with respect to the helm, it means a tiller. Otherwise give a rudder order.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Quote: "I find if the helm is more than 2/3rds to 3/4 over the rudder becomes pretty useless.. "

Uhm... in all humilty, could it have been better states as "I find a rudder deflection of more than 35 to 45 degrees makes the rudder pretty useless" :-)?

The appropriate deflection expressed (in degrees) will, of course, vary from boat to boat, even for boats of the same type and model.

Stop with the big words and math already..

[StuM]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I find if the helm is more than 2/3rds to 3/4 over the rudder becomes pretty useless..
Main reefed down and centred.. backed jib furled to just enough to stop her going head to wind..
Rudder hard over creates to much dead water to my mind.. no bite.
But thats just me..

Depends on the boat, but that is certainly true for quite a few designs.

Which is why I'm still waiting for the OP to come back and describe his rudder position.

Added: Once again, thank's to Alan Mighty for his clear exposition of why we should all be talking about "rudder position" and not "helm"

I rather like the "The Navy Lark"'s "left hand down a bit"

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by StuM

Depends on the boat, but that is certainly true for quite a few designs.

Which is why I'm still waiting for the OP to come back and describe his rudder position.

Added: Once again, thank's to Alan Mighty for his clear exposition of why we should all be talking about "rudder position" and not "helm"

I rather like the "The Navy Lark"'s "left hand down a bit"

I am more accustomed to tillers but as Americans favour wheels on everything I went for helm.. assuming they'd know it meant into the wind..

[gpeacock]

Originally Posted by StuM

You haven't mentioned your rudder position?

We couldn't get her higher than 70 deg into the wind. Rudder is hard over at this point. So is the Hydrovane. Yeah, at this point both were stalling but turning either down even a bit would allow them to bite, we'd speed up to 3 or 3.5 knots and get knocked hard by the next big wave set.

[gpeacock]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

How far back from the stemhead is the inner forestay tacked ... Just behind the windlass (like mine) or half way back to the mast?

If its like mine the sailplan - even with a triple reefed main - is out of kilter unless I use the #3 storm jib ( 50 sq foot ) and even then it is a struggle to get her hove to....

Yeah, I would expect our designs (both rig and hull) are pretty similar. The stemhead is tacked as you say, just behind the windlass.

[zstine]

Originally Posted by gpeacock

We cant get her higher than 79 deg into the wind. Rudder is hard over at this point. So is the Hydrovane.

And the mainsail was sheeted in I assume, not luffing? If so, then try to reduce the head sail's force (smaller sail, sheeted different, or tacked farther aft) or increase the main's driving force, less reef etc... You can also try a little less helm. Like 15 degrees vice hard over. You could be stalling the foil... The boat needs some forward motion driven by the main. Even boats without headsails can heave to, so I would say your jib's forces are too high compared to the main's driving force

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "Stop with the big words and math already.. "


Wassamadder? You are English, aren't you ;-0)?

TP