Drogue vs. Sea Anchor

[Agape39]

Originally Posted by capta

Rakuflames
I have lived (and worked as a professional captain) on both the east and west coasts of Fla. I have experienced the worst of both the Gulf Stream and the shallow waters off the west coast.
With the weather forecasting today, no one should be caught out there unawares. If it's summer, you are going to get some extremely violent and dangerous t-storms on either coast. With the shallow water extending so far offshore on the west coast, you can certainly get some disproportionally large waves when the t-storms roll through. But you will not have enough sea room to deploy a drogue or sea anchor if you are caught out day sailing in one of these storms. I would suggest you practise your seamanship and boat handling skills so that you can enter any one of the passes on the west coast in all but the most violent weather, which you should not allow yourself to be caught out in, anyway. Prudence is a skill best learned before you allow yourself to be caught in a dangerous situation that you could have avoided.
As for deploying a sea anchor or drogue in the Gulf Stream, you might really want to rethink that one. Do not, under ANY circumstances allow yourself to be caught in the Gulf Stream in a northerly, period! Do not let it happen. Been there, done THAT; it really is not a whole lot of fun!
Good luck to you.

DITTO, Raku, you be doing yourself a favor by taking this post to heart......I've also captained this route you will be taking soon for the last 10yrs, small amount of sail and run like the wind, even with 18 footers in a NWer in the stream we only hit 10kts. Great ride though!

[Agape39]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Im all about the inside of the roll and I can tell you from decades of experiences and tens of thousands of toilet paper miles that anyone who disagrees is an idiot!

Now doesn't that depend on the holder? :banghead

[svHyLyte]

Wow. I really admire you all. If one reads through the OP's posts, in this thread or on other subjects in other threads, one finds an adamant predisposition to disregard, disrespect the knowledge and advice of other competent sailors with years and years of experience, and particularly experience here in Florida, that he/she solicited. That you all are ready, willing and able to continue such discourse in the face of such disregard is admirable tho' pointless (IMHO). As my sainted grandmother used to say: "There's not much sense in arguing with a pig. One accomplishes nothing and one irritates the pig!"

As a practical matter, the OP's little yacht is quite capable of taking care of itself--like a big, fat, duck sitting out a gale/storm here on the coast of Florida or the Bahamas--so long as he/she doesn't do anything so stupid as to hamper the yacht's innate ability to care for itself and endure the foul weather. Any discussion beyond advising him/her to "be still", "keep quiet" and "rest" in such conditions is a waste of time/effort/energy (tho' such advise will likely be ignored). With experience one avoids mistakes. Unfortunately, only gains experience by making mistakes--sometimes hard earned. All the rest is pointless chatter.

FWIW...

PS: Evans, in the unlikely event you are still looking in on this thread, please give our regards to Beth. We really enjoyed her last article. She really is a Peach!

[cburger]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte;

That you all are ready, willing and able to continue such discourse in the face of such disregard is admirable tho' pointless (IMHO). As my sainted grandmother used to say: "There's not much sense in arguing with a pig. One accomplishes nothing and one irritates the pig!"

Another saying comes to mind: "Never argue with someone crazier than yourself "

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Agape39

DITTO, Raku, you be doing yourself a favor by taking this post to heart......I've also captained this route you will be taking soon for the last 10yrs, small amount of sail and run like the wind, even with 18 footers in a NWer in the stream we only hit 10kts. Great ride though!

@@

The people who are "unaware" are those who think a forecast of 20% rain means it won't rain, it won't storm, and they don't have to be prepared.

I've finished Hinz' book. Every single question I asked was addressed in his book. The questions I asked weren't foolish, and in fact how boats respond to both drogues and sea anchors do vary by design.

Someone here decided that I wasn't paying attention to the weather and now it's "common knowledge" that I need to be told this.

Believe whatever you want to believe. I want to be prepared for something I can't sail through or, if for some other reason, I need to slow or stop the boat.

But here's something I think some people here should take to heart: just because someone asks you a question doesn't mean they're arguing with you and doesn't mean they arbitrarily decided to disagree with you. In fact it might be that what you had to say was thought-provoking.

It's possible.

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Now I know from reading his posts that foolishsailor is not true to label, so I'm sure he does not believe that his diagram has any bearing on the A vs B debate. I think he's toying with us, as a cat with a mouse....

However, impressionable minds (or paleoanthropologists from a future era) may stumble across this post and experience significant bemusement.

So, for the record:

It does not matter for the sort of holder shown above, which way you load it.

On the other hand, it does make a difference (for single-handed use!) for THIS type of holder (shown below). All the difference in the world.

I'm glad we cleared that up ;-)

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Why is it that you feel so driven to repeat that over and over?

Driven? Not really. I repeat because in this thread there seems to be a failure to communicate.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I only disagreed with you on one thing -- whether big storms can pop up fast here or not.

Well I see other suggestions and comments I've made to which you also took issue but I'm really running out of time and energy to go back and find all the little details and I see no point and no benefit to you, me or the questions in this thread to do so.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

whether big storms can pop up fast here or not. You say no, I say yes. You have your experience, and I have mine.

Maybe the disagreement lies in ones definition of big.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

is that you don't like it that I disagreed with you on this -- not on sailing, not on the equipment in discussion, but regarding the unpredictability of thunderstorms.

It has nothing to do with like or dislike. I'm generally not that attached to whether someone disagrees with me or not.

Regarding thunderstorms, I don't think anyone will disagree that there is a level of unpredictability to exactly when, where and the severity. I think consistently the responses have been more focused on the fact that killer storms of extreme severity and long duration requiring ultimate survival tactics do not appear, unpredicted in an hour or even several hours, or a day, perhaps even two or three.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I've complimented you. I've told you I was putting posts of yours into a file.

Thank you sincerely. One the main reasons, other than to learn myself, that I participate in this forum is a desire to help other sailors like I have been helped along my path over the years.

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

But one time I disagreed with you, and boy is *your* dander up. Not mine -- yours.

No not at all. I am not annoyed, my dander isn't up, I am not invested in some outcome in this discussion, or to put it crudely, I don't give a shirt whether anyone agrees with me or not. That is not personal and not directed toward you, just my general philosophy. I don't want to waste a minute of my life worrying about whether anyone else approves of me or my lifestyle, my opinions or how I comb my hair.

You continue to assign emotional content to my posts which is not there and absolutely not felt by me. At the end of the day, I live my life, go work on my boat and get ready to go cruising regardless of anything that happens on this forum. I do confess to some level of bewilderment which might almost border on frustration at what appears to be not questioning but more like refusal to accept repeated, logical arguments from some very experienced cruisers with exactly the knowledge and experience you claim to be seeking.

Maybe these are just misunderstandings due to different styles of communication. Perhaps this is really just questioning and discussion but it just doesn't feel that way to me and apparently some others. The only reason I have participated in this discussion is because you do seem sincerely interested in learning, asking questions and expanding your skills and knowledge as a sailor. I have voiced my opinions and supported other opinions expressed in other posts. I can see nothing more to add in regard to the sailing and equipment questions, only further disputes over opinions or semantics or who said what to whom and when, so think it best for me to move on to other questions.

[Rakuflames]

Skipmac, I've pretty much sorted this out as far as I can without putting the equipment on the boat and trying it. You were a lot of help. I don't know why asking questions was interpreted as not believing the expertise here. I think a message board takes on a life of its own sometimes. But you're right; my questions have been answered. That's why I've stopped asking.

I think it's a darned shame that I got so much help here and it was all so misunderstood. (I still disagree with you regarding your faith in weather forecasts...) I think this would have been entirely different in person. If you, or others here, can't see that thoughtful responses triggered thoughtful questions from me, then it's not me who's the pig that couldn't learn to sing. Sometimes what we see in others is actually our own reflection.

[Diesel]

All the miss communication aside, I feel that I've learned a lot from reading it.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Diesel

All the miss communication aside, I feel that I've learned a lot from reading it.

Me too, Diesel. I read Hinz' book too -- but I couldn't ask Hinz questions.

The Pardey book is next.

[Dockhead]

Although some people have gotten frustrated with the OP for seeming not to absorb anything discussed here, I have found this to be a very interesting subject which has forced me to think through some things I haven't thought about in a long time.

So far we have worked on the theory, and I think there was a solid consensus among the more experienced sailors here, even if the OP didn't quite understand or accept it.

I decided to investigate the question from a different angle -- what do people really do? And I decided that the acid test would be what do sailors do in the English Channel, or otherwise in UK waters -- North Sea, Irish Sea, etc. That is because this is also 90% coastal sailing, but it is coastal sailing on an entirely different level than what most coastal sailors experience. The English Channel is one of the toughest bits of ocean in the world -- the busiest sea lane in the world by far, the biggest tides in the world but for only the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia, tidal streams running at up to 12 knots, some tidal races like Portland Bill capable of swallowing whole container ships, rocky desolate places like N Brittany, and on top of all that, very tough weather -- cold, stormy, with gales rolling in off the North Atlantic with the Gulf Stream. So I figured -- if any coastal sailors have real experience with storm conditions, it would be the English. So I put up a poll on a local English sailing site, ybw.com, to ask people what storm tactics they actually employee.

I asked these questions:

What storm tactics do you actually use in real life?

1. Nothing: It's not hard to avoid being out in a storm in the first place
2. Running off, if necessary under bare poles, is enough where I sail.
3. I sometimes heave-to if it gets really nasty.
4. I have used a drogue or sea-anchor to ride out a nasty storm.
5. I have used a drogue or sea anchor, but not in coastal waters.

As of this moment, 45 (!) sailors have responded. Their votes:

The great majority, 27 people or 60%, said that they never use any storm tactics at all -- that they simply avoid being out in storms.

10 sailors answered that they run off in a storm.

10 sailors answered that they sometimes heave to to ride out a storm.

Only one (!) sailor answered that he used a drogue or sea anchor

Two other sailors answered that they had used a drogue or sea anchor, but only in non-coastal waters.

I thought that was very interesting -- a strong confirmation in actual practice, of the theoretical conclusions of people here.

You can see the poll here: Poll: Storm Tactics - Page 2 - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Some of the comments were interesting:

I selected heave to as the answer to the poll, as thats the only action I have taken in really bad weather, and that was only for a short time to allow me to get some food together and get the kettle on. Then it was back on course with 3 reefs in the main, and a partly furled staysail.

"Like the OP I have considered the option of a drag device, and was leaning heavily in favour of the Jordan Series Drogue. One downside of using that in the area's I sail is that it could foul the bottom, there are some shallow areas.
So at the moment, its on the back burner until I make longer passages.
Worst weather I encountered was 65kts of wind when heading to Liverpool. Fortunately, the wind was going roughly the same direction I wanted to go, so with a little bit of genoa out was able to make a reasonable passage, bit scary to start with as the boat surfed a few times, but seeing as we both coped I stopped being worried.
A drag device would have helped a bit in that situation, but you have to consider as well the need to recover the drogue. I was single handing, and trying to recover a drogue while heading towards Queens Channel could have led to an worse situation, i.e., eye's not on where the boat is going but struggling to retrieve a drogue. By all accounts, the series drogue can be very difficult to retrieve."

Note that 65 knots (!) of wind is a hurricane force (!) wind, and even in that, something which coastal sailors in most parts of the world will never encounter in their lives, the poster did not do anything but sail.

Another:

"16 years ago I spent quite a lot of money having a 3' drogue made. Very heavy duty, with a funnel of about 3'. It has stayed in the bottom of my cockpit locker and the last time I even saw it was about 3-4 years ago.

Over the years we have sailed out many 40/50 kn gales and some 50/60 knotters but we have a heavy old Moody 42. When we were coming back from Madeira a few years ago we spent 36 hrs with over 55kns in the gusts. The seas and the noise were horrendous but the boat was not pressed at all. The wind was coming over the port quarter and we sailed our course the whole time.

After all that the short answer is that I don't know. It all depends on the conditions. Ocean storms kick up huge waves but they are much further apart. Med storms have shorter sharper seas, which are bloody uncomfortable. If I ever feel that my boat is uncomfortable, then I would take all or any of the above mentioned precautions but, as yet, all I have done is to put the wind on the quarter and shorten sail. Luckily I have always had the sea room to do this."

This is already not coastal sailing, but open ocean sailing in a really big storm with over 50 knots. Again, the sailor did nothing but sail. (It must be noted, however, that he has an old Moody 42, an unusually seaworthy boat.)

Another comment:

"Avoidance is the norm, however, if storm conditions catch us out, the only way is downwind - ish. Our motor-sailer could punch upwind but comfort is our prime concern (everything else being equal).
As to the drogue - gave it away to someone else who hasn't used it either."

So there is some more data for people interested in the subject.

[Rakuflames]

"Although some people have gotten frustrated with the OP for seeming not to absorb anything discussed here,"

I have, right now on my hard drive, four pages, single-spaced, of cut and pasted information from this discussion from a whole variety of posters. I heard about the Pardey book as well as the Hinz book here. I've read one book in its entirety and have started on the second one. I have rejected *some* advice. I don't believe it is *always* possible to avoid storms.

I never said I would use any of these approaches in shallow water. Not once.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

I have, right now on my hard drive, four pages, single-spaced, of cut and pasted information from this discussion from a whole variety of posters. I heard about the Pardey book as well as the Hinz book here.

I would like to add a little to the discussion.

I've never done so or felt the need to deploy a drogue or sea anchor. But have spent a fair time offshore, mostly solo which concentrates ones mind on these things
. And came to the conclusion that if you want an easier life then one thing not to do is to assume you can predict what it will be like out there when it gets a bit excited. Sorry, Raku, but you come across as making your mind up about what will work more from thinking about it than trying it. I've been caught out so many times with "yeah, that will work, why wouldn't it". I would say a good thing to have onboard is an open mind and lots of options. Then go out on a breezy day and see what doesn't work and how easy it is to get back onboard,

Haven't come across the hinz book but lots real world examples here..
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heavy-Weathe...6869375&sr=8-1

Good luck out there.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by conachair

I would like to add a little to the discussion.

I've never done so or felt the need to deploy a drogue or sea anchor. But have spent a fair time offshore, mostly solo which concentrates ones mind on these things
. And came to the conclusion that if you want an easier life then one thing not to do is to assume you can predict what it will be like out there when it gets a bit excited. Sorry, Raku, but you come across as making your mind up about what will work more from thinking about it than trying it. I've been caught out so many times with "yeah, that will work, why wouldn't it". I would say a good thing to have onboard is an open mind and lots of options. Then go out on a breezy day and see what doesn't work and how easy it is to get back onboard,

Haven't come across the hinz book but lots real world examples here..
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Heavy-Weathe...6869375&sr=8-1

Good luck out there.

OF COURSE I COME ACROSS THAT WAY -- I just got the thing and haven't had a chance to test it at all.

I haven't made my mind up about ANYTHING -- these things could help me or really make a mess of things.

I even SAID that I would be testing it. I haven't made my mind up about ANYTHING, and I never said I had. See what I mean about reading between the lines?

The ONLY thing I have refuted is the notion that we can always be confident about what weather we will face out there. You do the best weather forecasting you can with the best tools and information you can find, and then -- especially on a longer trip -- things change.

I do a lot of solo sailing too, and one of the big questions in my mind is "Could I use (especially the sea anchor) safely by myself?" I have no idea. And, I don't think testing it in moderate weather will answer that question. Should I be caught in a situation where I think the sea anchor is necessary and I'm by myself, I may well be faced with a gut-wrenching decision.

If I didn't have an open mind I would have never looked at either of these items. I think the people with the closed minds here are the several people who have said they have never used the equipment -- and never would. THAT'S a closed mind.

The only person I snapped at was the person who called me a liar -- twice.

I just added information to that sea anchor/drogue file, so let's just see how much information I found so detailed and useful that I saved it on my hard drive:

Wow -- more than I realized -- well over 1500 words. Don't tell me I don't have an open mind, or that I didn't listen to people here. Thanks very much.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Wow -- more than I realized -- well over 1500 words. Don't tell me I don't have an open mind, or that I didn't listen to people here. Thanks very much.

I didn't. Just trying to help.

But won't bother again.