Do I REALLY need two poles?

[GrahamO]

We are embarking on a slightly crazy endeavor to sail across the Pacific to Australia in our Bristol 38.8. We have a relatively small (110%) Genoa and we are planning to add a Doyle UPS for downwind sailing. The intent in light winds is to use them both at once.

We have a mast mounted telescopic pole that we can use for the UPS and I am planning for a fixed pole for the Genoa but it is a major PITA to install and I am not sure I really need it if we always try and set up with the Genoa on the lee side.

Does anyone have any experience with this type of setup and can advise me?

Thanks!

[model 10]

What about the main boom? I got rid of a second pole and use the boom and some sort of barber hauler for a good lead.

[a64pilot]

My plan, yet to be implemented is to set up with the Genoa to leeward, and only run one pole.
I was thinking two poles and have had at lest one knowledgeable person tell me don't, unless it's a spare maybe

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by GrahamO

(110%) Genoa . . . Doyle UPS for downwind sailing. The intent in light winds is to use them both at once.

We have a mast mounted telescopic pole that we can use for the UPS
fixed pole for the Genoa

Does anyone have any experience with this type of setup and can advise me?

Yea, I have a bit of experience with this, and also have some thoughts for you.

Regarding the Doyle UPS . . . .I personally think you would be better with a cruising code zero made from DP CZ cloth. This would be a flatter, lower stretch sail than the UPS. Given your genoa is relatively small I think you would be better suited with a sail (like the zero) than would tight reach better, and you will not loose much downwind. This sail will also be more stable in shifty or gusty winds than the UPS. Doyle knows how to make this sail - their Marblehood loft made me a superb one.

Regarding the telescopic pole . . . . I can tell you that when one of these sails backs, or snaps there is a really big load on the pole. We sheared the heads off 4 3/8? stainless machine screws (holding the pole track to the mast) when our #3 backed once. It will not be too hard to break that telescopic pole. If you are super attentive and careful it will be ok, but at 2am some night you probably are just not going to be super attentive and careful.

Proper sized continuous (eg not tele) spin poles are better for long distance cruising. Some people do make it around with tele poles - but there is both skill and luck involved in that. I might comment that a proper spin pole, would also allow you to set the UPS (or zero) tack off the pole, and set right in front of the boat, which is supper easy and efficient in some conditions.

You do not need two poles. You can get around just file with one, pole-ing out the genoa to leeward. And with a ups/genoa combo that is probably fine. If your destination is dead downwind you will probably want to steer up 10 or 15 degrees to make sure the UPS stays full. And if the wind shifts behind you will need to gybe both sails and the pole. The twin pole set-up is really suited to the double jib set-up - where you can stabilize both sails and never need to gybe them even with the wind shifting back and forth behind you - saves a lot of effort. Depending on the cut of the zero you might or might not be able to do this. If you were to carry a second jib (say on a vectran luff) in your inventory, then a second pole makes real sense; but if you have only the one jib, then one pole is fine (two poles would help a tiny bit with the UPS in particular situations).

PS UnCiv . . . btw, I have seen you mention a 'proper' or 'true' 'racing zero' a couple times. I am honestly not sure why a cruiser would ever want such a thing. The racing rules impose mid-girth requirements on the zero (to measure as a spinnaker) which are definitely sub optimal shape for the way the sail is often used (tight reaching). IMHO, when cruising it is better to get the best sail shape for the intended purpose, ignoring the racing rule restrictions.

[Seighlor]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Regarding the telescopic pole . . . . I can tell you that when one of these sails backs, or snaps there is a really big load on the pole. We sheared the heads off 4 3/8? stainless machine screws (holding the pole track to the mast) when our #3 backed once. It will not be too hard to break that telescopic pole. If you are super attentive and careful it will be ok, but at 2am some night you probably are just not going to be super attentive and careful.

Proper sized continuous (eg not tele) spin poles are better for long distance cruising. Some people do make it around with tele poles - but there is both skill and luck involved in that. I might comment that a proper spin pole, would also allow you to set the UPS (or zero) tack off the pole, and set right in front of the boat, which is supper easy and efficient in some conditions.

Good thoughts here. The one thing I will add is, yes, you will need two poles if your only pole is to be a telescoping pole. The telescoping poles are fine for day-sailing but, in my experience, are dangerous and not suitable for ocean crossings.

[elandra65]

Only one pole is necessary as the poled out headsail will feed wind into the other sail assuming you are not dead downwind. You are better off 20 to 30 degrees off in anycase to reduce rolling and improve comfort. Telescoping poles (Forespar) are a load of rubbish. I waited 4 weeks in Panama for one and it constantly broke on the passage to Aus. They are a faulty design and incapable of even modest sustained loads. Better a robust fixed pole with standard j measurement which for a 110% will be fine.

[Snowpetrel]

I've used a substantial homemade telescopic pole very successfully offshore. I used a strong pin to lock the thing and it gave me no issues.

The bad reputation of telescopic poles is due to the lightly built forespar or equavalent whisker poles on the market. A proper oceangoing telecopic pole will be a fair bit heavier than a normal whisker pole. One advantage of the telescopic pole is that its length can be adjusted to suit the sail size. Ie on cutters the pole at it's shortest could be used to pole out the staysail.

My standard rig is genoa to windward on the pole, main to leeward well preventered and downhauled. And in light airs a drifter set to leeward off the main boom and the mainsail down.

Saying all this I once did a delivery of a small sloop with twin poles and headsails. It was a wonderfully easy rig to work, no problem to gybe or run square with. So the rig definately has its place.

[GrahamO]

Thanks all,
A lot to chew on here - and a few things I am going to PM for clarification.

The gist of it seems to be that the only reason I need a second pole is because I will probably break my telescopic pole. I am a bit surprised to see the telescopic pole described as 'lightly built' because it weighs a TON - anyway I will definitely take the advice.

However - the telescopic pole works fine on the genoa fully retracted when it is presumably stronger. So should I get a second pole for a) backup and b) the UPS/drifter/code zero? If I get a pole for the UPS it is going to be too long for the genoa.....

Slightly confused at the moment but I will get there. I'm much more used to flogging upwind.

[GrahamO]

Another thought - Given the down on telescopic poles is it even safe to use it as primary until it fails then switch to a fixed pole or should I be taking it off altogether?

Alternatively I could keep the telescopic as the spare....

[Seighlor]

Originally Posted by GrahamO

Another thought - Given the down on telescopic poles is it even safe to use it as primary until it fails then switch to a fixed pole or should I be taking it off altogether?

Alternatively I could keep the telescopic as the spare....

Yes, keep it as a spare. And yes, the Forespar poles are heavy. But I've broken two of them (4" diameter) right at the joint where the inner pole exits the outer length of pole. That's unlikely to happen in light air. In heavy air, however, when it breaks it will create havoc on the foredeck. In my case, the broken pole wiped out two lifeline stanchions. And picking up the pieces, containing the sail, etc. involved multiple crew members. Not something for a sailing couple to engage in.

[GrahamO]

Thanks Seighlor,
I only see a need for the pole in light air and larger seas when the sail keeps collapsing and popping. Am i missing something?

Originally Posted by Seighlor

Yes, keep it as a spare. And yes, the Forespar poles are heavy. But I've broken two of them (4" diameter) right at the joint where the inner pole exits the outer length of pole. That's unlikely to happen in light air. In heavy air, however, when it breaks it will create havoc on the foredeck. In my case, the broken pole wiped out two lifeline stanchions. And picking up the pieces, containing the sail, etc. involved multiple crew members. Not something for a sailing couple to engage in.

[UNCIVILIZED]

To the OP, you'd be wise to read this recent thread, & it's discussion about Whisker Poles vs. Spin Poles --> http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...le-188622.html

I'm a big fan of regular spinnaker poles, or rather, "over length"/"penalty" poles. Meaning ones longer than the J dimension on the boat. Spin poles are FAR better for poling out any kind of headsail. Anything else is sub-standard, & pretty much for light duty weekend use.

I like spin poles as they're fixed length units, with little to fail. And the male to female, or bayonet connections on the mast are much more solid, & long lived than poles which clip on to rings on the mast. The reason being is that with each wave, the motion of the boat slams the jaws of a clip on pole against the ring. Each cycle taking a bit off of the pole jaws' life.

Also, longer, penalty poles, project the sail out further, to better catch the wind, if you're at all sailing deep angles. And when saiing hotter ones, they move the center of effort of the spinnaker (& whole sail plan) forward, thus reducing weather helm & increasing speed.
And the mast tracks for their butt ends let you tailor the height of the pole to the sail it's being used with, along with wind speed, etc.

Plus the jaws on them are quite stout & long lived. Unlike some clip on poles. But regardless of type, get the stoutest one with the beefiest hardware that you can find. And get one that's easy to connect a topping lift & foreguy to (& also an afterguy).

In terms of handling, you can locate the pole on the deck so that once the topping lift is connected to the outboard end, via a witness mark on the T-lift. All you need do is push the pole forward, & it'll rise to the proper height on it's own. And then lock the butt into it's socket on the mast. From there, the forguy & sheet (or afterguy) easily keep it under control.

They really make a world of difference in terms of keeping the sail full, & on the correct side, when saiing downwind. Particularly when sailing deep angles. And act as a boom (with a built in "preventer") for the jib.


estarzinger, as to True Code 0's vs. Cruising Code 0's. To me the key difference between the two is in the pointing ability of the two. Owing more to the built in anti-torsion cable/rope in the True Code 0's luff, as to sail shape. Since True Code 0's are designed to allow you to sail to windward a bit more than are Cruising Code 0's. Generally by about 20 degrees according to North sails. Or am I missing something?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

estarzinger, as to True Code 0's vs. Cruising Code 0's, to me the key difference between the two is in the pointing ability of the two. Owing more to the built in anti-torsion cable/rope in the True Code 0's luff, as to shape. Since True Code 0's are designed to allow you to sail to windward a bit more than are Cruising Code 0's. Generally by about 20 degrees according to North sails. Or am I missing something?

actually, yea, you are missing something. The defining aspect of a 'racing' code zero is that the mid-girth be 75% of the foot length (and I believe a leech that is no more than 95% of luff length but I am a bit fuzzier on that). That is the racing rule aspect that allows these sails to count as spinnakers rather than jibs. That causes unsupported sail area which is not optimal for light air close reaching (upto 40 degrees AWA), and it will flap (and thus fatigue) in stronger close reaching.

So in fact a cruising (or non-racing) zero will go upwind better than a racing one. You can, and I did, get anti-torsion cables on non-racing zeros. You can also get the exact same cloth as the racing ones (cuben is the best, but the DP CZ cloth is pretty damn good for way way less).

The racing versions are rule beaters, and very very broadly rule beaters are not optimal unless you are racing to the rule. With a cruising (or non-racing) zero you can get it optimized for closer or deeper angles as you desire.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

actually, yea, you are missing something. The defining aspect of a 'racing' code zero is that the mid-girth be 75% of the foot length (and I believe a leech that is no more than 95% of luff length but I am a bit fuzzier on that). That is the racing rule aspect that allows these sails to count as spinnakers rather than jibs. That causes unsupported sail area which is not optimal for light air close reaching (upto 40 degrees AWA), and it will flap (and thus fatigue) in stronger close reaching.

So in fact a cruising (or non-racing) zero will go upwind better than a racing one. You can, and I did, get anti-torsion cables on non-racing zeros. You can also get the exact same cloth as the racing ones (cuben is the best, but the DP CZ cloth is pretty damn good for way way less).

The racing versions are rule beaters, and very very broadly rule beaters are not optimal unless you are racing to the rule. With a cruising (or non-racing) zero you can get it optimized for closer or deeper angles as you desire.

Yes, that is true. You can have them shape the sail, & optimize it towards your intended use, regardless of the name. Ditto on picking & choosing sail features. Especially given that these sails are already setup to be designed to match a given boat type's sailing style & performance characteristics.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by GrahamO

Thanks Seighlor,
I only see a need for the pole in light air and larger seas when the sail keeps collapsing and popping. Am i missing something?

Yes, poles are very useful in strong downwind conditions where the headsail can be set opposite a reefed main for a stable and fast downwind ride. For this to work well the headsail should be set flat and poled well forward. An over 'J' length pole and a partly rolled away genoa works very well.