Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

[Creedence]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

Not in remote locations with Gold sales but reasonably often in London, Brisbane,Perth and Singapore. France is a problem selling bullion but gold coins are sellable in Paris (in my case Krugerrands) without being penalised. I suspect that gold coins are generally much easier to exchange for cash .
Carefully research the price of gold at the time of the transaction and pay close attention to to what the buyer is offering...... the difference can be astronomical in the buyers favour at small gold buying businesses. Oh, don’t actually flash any gold until the agreement is made, that will attract unwanted attention.
Pete.

Great points. The spread right now is absurd. It seems the turmoil in the bond market it hammering “gold prices”, but good luck trying to actually buy gold at the ~$1720 an ounce it traded at today. Go to Apmex or any of the others, heck go to eBay, and the price seems pegged around $1920 an ounce.

There certainly is a disconnect at the moment. If I can buy it near the actual spot price, I’m snagging it up (sadly, no sooner do I acquire it, I lose it in boating accidents). I suspect the derivative market (interestingly created by the US State Department in 1974... wrap your head around that) is keeping the actual value suppressed.

[CarlF]

Gold has substantially underperformed the returns of a diversified basket of US stocks in any 20 year period you care to pick. Maybe that will change - but people have forecast that before and lost a lot of money.

My free Visa ATM from Fidelity works in any bank ATM in the world where I've ever tried it, pays interest on balances, the exchange rate is excellent, and Fidelity reimburses all fees.

It seems almost certain that the US will eventually require their citizens to report all Bitcoin transactions on their tax returns to cut down on money laundering and tax evasion - just like you must now report all overseas bank accounts on your return. To not report it is a felony tax evasion. European countries will follow. BitCoin demand (and price) will then plummet as there will be much less demand.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This is the fatal flaw. With a limit on the total number of bitcoin, every one that is lost, is lost forever...and security is all on you.

If you farm out security to a 3rd party, you will pay for it...kind of like you already do for banks.

Recently there was a story of a supposedly high tech, really in the know guy, who stored his access codes on a portable harddrive...he lost the password to the harddrive. Problem is this harddrive is set up with an extra layer of protection that after too many incorrect password attempts, the harddrive deletes the contents....He has something like $250mil on the harddrive.

Now imagine grandpa is getting a bit of dementia and has his retirement nest egg in bitcoin on a harddrive...he doesn't even remember he has a harddrive, let alone what the password is.

Long story short, bitcoins will continue to be lost. Current estimates are around 25% have been lost. They will continue to be lost and that will drive deflation. No currency has ever been built around a purposely deflationary currency.

No, Bitcoin or any crypto is not actually stored on a cold storage device (tablet, laptop, USB) only the access codes/keys that allow you to access the ledger that is the BC blockchain. Simply a financial ledger that track chain of title. Nothing is ever removed from said ledger, it is only accessed in order to transfer ownership.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by Chotu

That’s how you’d do it???

Why?

I’d go once, when I arrive in a country and get a month's worth of cash from selling a piece of gold.

That’s it. They don’t make reputable gold small enough to try to sell for every dozen eggs you buy. That would be nuts. You’d get about $1700 a trip and do it maybe once a month, if that.

This is what I do 90% of the time in the backwoods of foreign countries. Make a bank stop once a week or two more if I’m paying for a room for that time in one shot. Never use my credit card outside banks, good way to have it cleaned out.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Do you have a large vault of gold bullion in your home port?

On a 2yr trip, that would be around $50k worth of gold to be carrying...do your report it to the border officials?

If you don't and they find it, you can expect them to presume you are doing something illegal and take it...I'm not talking about 3rd World Banana Republics either...most countries presume you are doing something bad if you cross the border with large amounts of unreported wealth and they have a tendency to just take it without any due process.

And if you report it, don't be surprised when the officials buddies show up in the middle of the night and take it.

And let's say all goes well you aren't robbed and the officials are OK with it You stop by the pawn shop to trade your gold bullion for cash...it will make the bank fees look positively cheap.

No, anyway you cut it, it's massively more complicated & stressful and likely going to cost you more in the long run to try and use gold as currency (which you kind of aren't if you immediately convert it to currency at the beginning of each month.

$50k at current prices is about 27 troy oz so wouldn’t really require more than a small corner of your sock drawer.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by Jdege

Truthfully, I don't see it as an investment, of as a medium of exchange.

What it might be, though, is a hedge against inflation.

And a protection against government overreach.

• The Secret, Dangerous World of Venezuelan Bitcoin Mining
• Venezuelans Don't Believe in Bitcoin. They Need Bitcoin.
• Bitcoin Is Protecting Human Rights Around the World

Absolutely agree. The transaction costs are also proportional to the overall value with Bitcoin. As the price increases so does the cost to transfer it, big reason why it will never be a useable currency.

[rbk]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Gold has substantially underperformed the returns of a diversified basket of US stocks in any 20 year period you care to pick. Maybe that will change - but people have forecast that before and lost a lot of money.

My free Visa ATM from Fidelity works in any bank ATM in the world where I've ever tried it, pays interest on balances, the exchange rate is excellent, and Fidelity reimburses all fees.

It seems almost certain that the US will eventually require their citizens to report all Bitcoin transactions on their tax returns to cut down on money laundering and tax evasion - just like you must now report all overseas bank accounts on your return. To not report it is a felony tax evasion. European countries will follow. BitCoin demand (and price) will then plummet as there will be much less demand.

This is why most anonymous crypto will become illegal or extremely regulated through government regulated exchanges which defeats the purpose of anonymous crypto transactions. Digital currency will be in our future but you won’t be buying a coke or coffee with Bitcoin anytime soon, there are others that fit that bill.

[BillKny]

For someone cruising out in the "real world" it matters no one trivial wit what YOU think is money, it only matters what the person you are trying to buy groceries from thinks money is.

If you think bitcoin or gold is going to buy you groceries in the Bahama out islands, I hope you have a significant layer of belly fat laid on-- you are going to need it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rbk

$50k at current prices is about 27 troy oz so wouldn’t really require more than a small corner of your sock drawer.

You'd keep $50 000 in gold in your sock drawer?? On a boat? Crossing international borders where you have to declare it every time, where it's subject to taxation or seizure in many countries?

That's about the worst idea for funding cruising expenses I ever heard. Avoiding THAT, is why God created banks.

Bitcoin at least doesn't need to be declared, and is hard to steal.

But Bitcoin is nearly that daft, in my opinion, for reasons which have been discussed.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Gold has substantially underperformed the returns of a diversified basket of US stocks in any 20 year period you care to pick. Maybe that will change - but people have forecast that before and lost a lot of money.

My free Visa ATM from Fidelity works in any bank ATM in the world where I've ever tried it, pays interest on balances, the exchange rate is excellent, and Fidelity reimburses all fees.

It seems almost certain that the US will eventually require their citizens to report all Bitcoin transactions on their tax returns to cut down on money laundering and tax evasion - just like you must now report all overseas bank accounts on your return. To not report it is a felony tax evasion. European countries will follow. BitCoin demand (and price) will then plummet as there will be much less demand.

It does not seem certain. I read way to much daily in regards to this topic and I can say with 100% certainty that all are guessing, that includes you and me.
The financial landscape is changing more rapidly, it's very difficult to know the future regarding Bitcoin, gold or the usd.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You'd keep $50 000 in gold in your sock drawer?? On a boat? Crossing international borders where you have to declare it every time, where it's subject to taxation or seizure in many countries?

That's about the worst idea for funding cruising expenses I ever heard. Avoiding THAT, is why God created banks.

Bitcoin at least doesn't need to be declared, and is hard to steal.

But Bitcoin is nearly that daft, in my opinion, for reasons which have been discussed.

Hi Dockhead, many cruisers carry quite large cash holdings while internationally cruising and dont declare they do. Cash can solve many problems.

In my whole circumnavigation I never had the boat that thoroughly searched that hiding cash or gold would be a problem, this was over a 10 year period.

I actually know a guy that forgot where he hid 10k, couldn't find it.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by daletournier

You are talking about two different things, a crypto exchange is a completely different animal that a ETF setup on a major stock market exchange that gives the average investor the ability to buy Bitcoin just like he or she buys stock. It means I can purchase Bitcoin exposure through the commsec trading arm of the commonwealth bank.

This dosent mean I don't agree with much of what you say,I do BUT it also doesn't mean Bitcoin isnt around for a long time and we dont get it!

I'm challenging my what I consider rational views regarding Bitcoin, trying to see what others claim to see, there's lots of absolute fools in this space BUT theres also people I respect in this space thus I'm doing the work to try to get a better understanding.

Crypto is a big part of the future, I doubt Bitcoin will be what they claim it will be , but who knows.

My point is, buying and selling stocks (or in this case bitcoin thru and EFT) comes with significant costs...on the same order as just using normal banking systems.

It does provide protections against theft (but not against bitcoin collapsing). Better than DIY security for your bitcoin but not as good as using the banking system.

You are talking about using it as an investment. This thread is about practical use as a currency and EFTs don't do that very well.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Yep, total number of possible bitcoin is 21,000,000.
So far about 18,600,000 have been mined.

And something on the order of 5,000,000 have been permanently lost.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by CarlF

It seems almost certain that the US will eventually require their citizens to report all Bitcoin transactions on their tax returns to cut down on money laundering and tax evasion - just like you must now report all overseas bank accounts on your return. To not report it is a felony tax evasion. European countries will follow. BitCoin demand (and price) will then plummet as there will be much less demand.

Just did my taxes last weekend...they already require you to make a statement regarding use of crypto. So this isn't some future issue...it's here and it's now.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by rbk

No, Bitcoin or any crypto is not actually stored on a cold storage device (tablet, laptop, USB) only the access codes/keys that allow you to access the ledger that is the BC blockchain. Simply a financial ledger that track chain of title. Nothing is ever removed from said ledger, it is only accessed in order to transfer ownership.

True, kind of like tossing gold coins over the side in 1000 fathoms...the gold still exists.

Of course, you have a better chance of finding and recovering those gold coins than getting access to your bitcoin without the access key.