Bitcoin and Gold/silver coins as payment abroad

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The conversion rate volatility between bitcoin and fiat currency is just like the stock markets: panic and greed driven, but long term performance it is a winner by design as it doesn’t devalue for inflation like fiat currency.

You don’t need to be able to use it at a fruit stall, as long as you can get local currency with it somewhere local. I think some gold and silver coins will work at a bank, pawn shop, coin dealer etc.

The real need will be when shtf... for now it can be kept on the side while funny paper money is used.

Volatility is massively greater than the stock market.

While it has done well so far as with most ponzi schemes, they do great...until they collapse. Until they collapse, they typically blow away the market based returns.

For small transactions, it's pretty much worthless particularly outside of hip locations.

Gold/Silver...you might be able to use it if you are in an area with lots of small time miners but you will likely still have to convert it to cash.

Probably the biggest issue is it's designed to go into permanent deflation with no good way to get out. There are a limited number of coins and when a coin is lost, there is no way to recover it. That means it's designed to always go up in value (ie: deflate). A deflating currency discourages use, since why would you spend it today if you can buy more with it tomorrow.

Better would be to get a credit card with no international fees and use that for larger purchases and then get an ATM card where they refund withdrawal fees. That allows you free or at least very cheap access to your cash without the weirdness of bitcoin.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Volatility is massively greater than the stock market.

While it has done well so far as with most ponzi schemes, they do great...until they collapse. Until they collapse, they typically blow away the market based returns.

For small transactions, it's pretty much worthless particularly outside of hip locations.

Gold/Silver...you might be able to use it if you are in an area with lots of small time miners but you will likely still have to convert it to cash.

Probably the biggest issue is it's designed to go into permanent deflation with no good way to get out. There are a limited number of coins and when a coin is lost, there is no way to recover it. That means it's designed to always go up in value (ie: deflate). A deflating currency discourages use, since why would you spend it today if you can buy more with it tomorrow.

Better would be to get a credit card with no international fees and use that for larger purchases and then get an ATM card where they refund withdrawal fees. That allows you free or at least very cheap access to your cash without the weirdness of bitcoin.

Your comparison of Bitcoin to Ponzi schemes illustrates your ignorance on the subject. I recommend to read up on blockchain technology.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Part of the lure of considering portable wealth commodities is the removal of stress.

I'd find it far more stressful to be holding tens of thousands worth of gold bullion that could be stolen. Even if it's not stolen, you better declare it upon entering a country...if you don't and they find it, many countries will presume you are money laundering and confiscate it.

Better the devil you know...banks will take a small cut but if you do a little research it isn't much. We switched to a card with no international currency fees and the exchange rate has always been comparable when we check it out.

Including ATM fees, I'd say we are usually under $20/month in cost to get access to our currency...not enough to bother with oddball schemes.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Your comparison of Bitcoin to Ponzi schemes illustrates your ignorance on the subject. I recommend to read up on blockchain technology.

Your ignorance is showing (if you want to play the insult game). You make the common mistake of proponents.

Bitcoin =/= Blockchain

Bitcoin uses blockchain. Blockchain exists separate from Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is intended to function as a currency but it's not designed not to function as a currency. That's the supposed pot at the end of the rainbow but the design is faulty. It's turned it into a speculative product that will continue to climb as long as the next investor piles in...until there are no more investors and it collapses. It produces nothing, has no intrinsic value and isn't a good currency.

Right now, I have yet to get someone to provide a use that beats out other methods...except for illegal transactions (and those have mostly outdated with authorities figuring out how to track them).

[wolfgal]

this has been a big question for me as well. in the end, i will opt for the Transferwise card or other. but since i've considered these options, i'll share my thoughts. please know that i never studied economics. i read a bit, run scenarios in my head, that's all. the truth is, the future is pure fog for me.

PMs:
for me, precious metals are a sound investment. and even having some silver coins on board could prove useful. however, the more expensive bits of metal are most interesting as a way to store longterm, as in very long term. as far as i can tell, lots of PMs will be more in demand in industry in the years to come and not always so bountiful, so the supply/demand fundamentals look good and very good in the longterm. but... there is a snag:

central banks have been net buyers (since the financial crisis), while gold was classified as a risk-less asset, which underscores its track record (thousands of years) and as something with “intrinsic value". at the same time, manipulation on the retail level has been a long-standing issue. it almost seems like the price is being kept down for a reason. when i venture far out on that limb, i see how converting fiat to metal exerts a deflationary force on economies. and since a low price attracts less buyers, perhaps...

Bitcoin:
for me, blockchain technology is integrating the nooks and crannies of our future in mind-blowing ways. it is evolving at lightning speed, yes, but how will it evolve and what shape it will take is not set in stone

when it comes to bitcoin (which uses blockchain techology), sure, it is volatile, and as most proponents of bitcoin like Slayer and Pal and other big-cats say (and rightly, i think), it is in the acceptance phase still.

there's much much to consider: firstly, although the fundamentals are fantastic (and copyable, btw), its strengthening trend tends to rely on the network effect (the enthusiasm around it) and the fact that this network encourages an expectation of it going up in value. the effect influences both big and small retail buyers to hold it, use it as a store of value (instead of trading it). creating a re-enforcing feedback loop.

as far as volatility goes, we can first consider what would happen if a huge holder, like the govt of China, could one day sell and cause a landslide... or the avalanche could be tipped off by a few big players who choose to do what the big boys did to the stock market in '29. for now, many are going public as hodlers, but remember: one doesn't know when they sell, only when they buy…

but for me, this (above) possible scenario is like that train that, when it passes, hides another one passing behind it (un train put en cacher un autre). i see a different scenario (perhaps simultaneously) playing out in the longterm. please consider this:

especially once it reaches the end of its acceptance phase and matures and stabilises in terms of price and enters its "use" phase, there will suddenly be ever-so-many reasons for govts to stomp out (or confiscate) its use. why? govts have every reason to control their currencies and force them upon their citizens. think of tax revenues, velocity of money (in their currently) vs the deflationary effects when bitcoin is used… and i do not see govts looking kindly upon a currency that allows people to financially interact around the globe somewhat under-the-wire, especially when our telephones can be used to reveal where we are and with whom.

how? like us, govts know that part of the reason for bitcoin’s accent is because there is nowhere else to go with one’s savings right now.

imagine that bitcoin matures, and people are no longer making millions just holding it; and at this moment, a govt or two (in sync perhaps, US and EU and UK) could launch a CB digital currency (on the blockchain) to their citizens that has some fantastic benefit, say high interest on savings accounts (remember those days?!!!!) and/or some soft way to pay off debt. and do not forget: for now, assistance is arriving in the form of stimulus cheques, but the future may involve BUI. doesn't it make sense that it be on a blockchain ledger?

at the same time, govts can regulate (frustrate folks with) on the on-and-off-ramps to bitcoin. and those ramps could be regulated to reflect the environmental impact of one bitcoin transaction (apparently, one transaction of bitcoin uses the same amount of electricity as 700 visa transactions). could this cost be attributed to those who use it so to discourage its popularity? and imagine that, in comparison, the cb digital money is cheap to use...

i do not claim i'm right about this, in any way. i really doubt myself, especially with all the hedge funds getting in and the big banks..., but, with what i can imagine right now, when it comes time to act like a currency, bitcoin’s known volatility is less important to its future than its (potential) fragility.

maybe it will only exist as a store of value? no idea..., but i'm keeping this in mind: a service is (already) available to help you find the key to your bitcoin (when you lose it). and well, this, in itself, is something to consider, especially since hackers are definitely getting better at what they do best.



wolfie

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Your comparison of Bitcoin to Ponzi schemes illustrates your ignorance on the subject. I recommend to read up on blockchain technology.

Blockchain technology isn't Bitcoin. I've spent alot of time looking into Bitcoin , I'm still not sure, although if I had of put my boat money there I'd be 700k up by now[emoji30]

I see the value of blockchain, it's a huge part of our future and should be, tbe transparencyalone makes it very valuable.

I see great value in Defi as a disrupter, our current banking system needs disrupting , I'm yet to see value in Bitcoin, or how to even value Bitcoin. Maybe pristine collateral down the track BUT currently it's a speculative mania that imo is damaging what it should be. I understand the power of the network effect BUT I cannot see how this is unique and cant be replicated, in fact Bitcoin is quite old technology, it has first mover advantage.

I see Nassim Taleb who wrote the foreword to "The Bitcoin standard " last week sold his Bitcoin and called it a failure due to its volatility and the Bitcoiners that worship it.

Btw I totally accept it can go to a million dollars, rational or irrational is irrelevant.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Your ignorance is showing (if you want to play the insult game). You make the common mistake of proponents.

Bitcoin =/= Blockchain

Bitcoin uses blockchain. Blockchain exists separate from Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is intended to function as a currency but it's not designed not to function as a currency. That's the supposed pot at the end of the rainbow but the design is faulty. It's turned it into a speculative product that will continue to climb as long as the next investor piles in...until there are no more investors and it collapses. It produces nothing, has no intrinsic value and isn't a good currency.

Right now, I have yet to get someone to provide a use that beats out other methods...except for illegal transactions (and those have mostly outdated with authorities figuring out how to track them).

I should of read this prior to my previous post.

I will add I believe Bitcoin is a great idea and great start BUT its failed if we judge it by Satoshis white paper. ....yet it's going up.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Your ignorance is showing (if you want to play the insult game). You make the common mistake of proponents.

Bitcoin =/= Blockchain

Bitcoin uses blockchain. Blockchain exists separate from Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is intended to function as a currency but it's not designed not to function as a currency. That's the supposed pot at the end of the rainbow but the design is faulty. It's turned it into a speculative product that will continue to climb as long as the next investor piles in...until there are no more investors and it collapses. It produces nothing, has no intrinsic value and isn't a good currency.

Right now, I have yet to get someone to provide a use that beats out other methods...except for illegal transactions (and those have mostly outdated with authorities figuring out how to track them).

I’m sorry but you are completely wrong. There is no endgame with lack of investors... actually there is only a limited amount of bitcoin available and when all has been mined you can only get it when someone is willing to sell it to you. The opposite of Ponzi schemes.

People can use it for whatever they want. US$ is used for savings as well, nothing wrong with that. Bitcoin success has already been established, it can’t be cancelled and it’s value has been established by worldwide acceptance. If one wants to speculate then a brand new cryptocurrency is the way to go.

Blockchain was invented as integral part of Bitcoin. The only reason it exists outside of Bitcoin is that the other digital currencies copied it. If you understand blockchain technology, you understand Bitcoin and would not make those erroneous claims.

My observation of ignorance was not meant as an insult.

[Chotu]

It should be noted that block chain and Crypto are not Co dependent. Block chain is just a distributed technique of storing data. That’s all it is.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by wolfgal

this has been a big question for me as well. in the end, i will opt for the Transferwise card or other. but since i've considered these options, i'll share my thoughts. please know that i never studied economics. i read a bit, run scenarios in my head, that's all. the truth is, the future is pure fog for me.

PMs:
for me, precious metals are a sound investment. and even having some silver coins on board could prove useful. however, the more expensive bits of metal are most interesting as a way to store longterm, as in very long term. as far as i can tell, lots of PMs will be more in demand in industry in the years to come and not always so bountiful, so the supply/demand fundamentals look good and very good in the longterm. but... there is a snag:

central banks have been net buyers (since the financial crisis), while gold was classified as a risk-less asset, which underscores its track record (thousands of years) and as something with “intrinsic value". at the same time, manipulation on the retail level has been a long-standing issue. it almost seems like the price is being kept down for a reason. when i venture far out on that limb, i see how converting fiat to metal exerts a deflationary force on economies. and since a low price attracts less buyers, perhaps...

Bitcoin:
for me, blockchain technology is integrating the nooks and crannies of our future in mind-blowing ways. it is evolving at lightning speed, yes, but how will it evolve and what shape it will take is not set in stone

when it comes to bitcoin (which uses blockchain techology), sure, it is volatile, and as most proponents of bitcoin like Slayer and Pal and other big-cats say (and rightly, i think), it is in the acceptance phase still.

there's much much to consider: firstly, although the fundamentals are fantastic (and copyable, btw), its strengthening trend tends to rely on the network effect (the enthusiasm around it) and the fact that this network encourages an expectation of it going up in value. the effect influences both big and small retail buyers to hold it, use it as a store of value (instead of trading it). creating a re-enforcing feedback loop.

as far as volatility goes, we can first consider what would happen if a huge holder, like the govt of China, could one day sell and cause a landslide... or the avalanche could be tipped off by a few big players who choose to do what the big boys did to the stock market in '29. for now, many are going public as hodlers, but remember: one doesn't know when they sell, only when they buy…

but for me, this (above) possible scenario is like that train that, when it passes, hides another one passing behind it (un train put en cacher un autre). i see a different scenario (perhaps simultaneously) playing out in the longterm. please consider this:

especially once it reaches the end of its acceptance phase and matures and stabilises in terms of price and enters its "use" phase, there will suddenly be ever-so-many reasons for govts to stomp out (or confiscate) its use. why? govts have every reason to control their currencies and force them upon their citizens. think of tax revenues, velocity of money (in their currently) vs the deflationary effects when bitcoin is used… and i do not see govts looking kindly upon a currency that allows people to financially interact around the globe somewhat under-the-wire, especially when our telephones can be used to reveal where we are and with whom.

how? like us, govts know that part of the reason for bitcoin’s accent is because there is nowhere else to go with one’s savings right now.

imagine that bitcoin matures, and people are no longer making millions just holding it; and at this moment, a govt or two (in sync perhaps, US and EU and UK) could launch a CB digital currency (on the blockchain) to their citizens that has some fantastic benefit, say high interest on savings accounts (remember those days?!!!!) and/or some soft way to pay off debt. and do not forget: for now, assistance is arriving in the form of stimulus cheques, but the future may involve BUI. doesn't it make sense that it be on a blockchain ledger?

at the same time, govts can regulate (frustrate folks with) on the on-and-off-ramps to bitcoin. and those ramps could be regulated to reflect the environmental impact of one bitcoin transaction (apparently, one transaction of bitcoin uses the same amount of electricity as 700 visa transactions). could this cost be attributed to those who use it so to discourage its popularity? and imagine that, in comparison, the cb digital money is cheap to use...

i do not claim i'm right about this, in any way. i really doubt myself, especially with all the hedge funds getting in and the big banks..., but, with what i can imagine right now, when it comes time to act like a currency, bitcoin’s known volatility is less important to its future than its (potential) fragility.

maybe it will only exist as a store of value? no idea..., but i'm keeping this in mind: a service is (already) available to help you find the key to your bitcoin (when you lose it). and well, this, in itself, is something to consider, especially since hackers are definitely getting better at what they do best.



wolfie

Wow! what a great summary, well done, I'd say you have a much better understanding than most.

As someone that believes in sound money I truly like the idea of Bitcoin BUT unfortunately most bitcoiners dont want to look at the potential pitfalls, they bend the narrative to fit their desires which ultimately revolve around "get rich now".

This sounds terrible but I hope Bitcoin dies in order to pave the way for a better decentralized sound money.

[s/v Jedi]

Actually, the Bitcoin ledger is public and therefore it is easy to track the big transactions like Tesla did and simple to see when they sell. The wallet addresses are just numbers so it’s hard to find out who it is sold to, but every Bitcoin can be tracked publicly for eternity.

The public ledger as opposed to the fiat secret ledgers is at the core of why it is such a great system.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Actually, the Bitcoin ledger is public and therefore it is easy to track the big transactions like Tesla did and simple to see when they sell. The wallet addresses are just numbers so it’s hard to find out who it is sold to, but every Bitcoin can be tracked publicly for eternity.

The public ledger as opposed to the fiat secret ledgers is at the core of why it is such a great system.

That's the value in blockchain, not exclusive to Bitcoin in anyway.

As much as I like decentralized it comes with it's own set of problems ie you are 100% responsible, forget your key? is the average person able to or willing to be 100% responsible?

Also specifically related to Bitcoin I dont understand how the network gets maintained once the last coin is mined? yes I get the narrative is transaction fees but now we are assuming theres enough transaction fees? which maybe hard if it dosent function as a currency like Saylor and others now suggest its not, hoe does a " collectable " generate transaction fees?

Btw, I find it quite amusing that a Bitcoin is always represented as a gold coin and measures it's worth in the fiat currency Bitcoiners dispise.

As I said I like the idea but it breaks a major rule for me "if the downside risk is equal to or greater than the upside potential, dont do the trade", I cant value Bitcoin therefore I have no idea what its upside and downside are....its not an investment, it's a speculation, a very profitable speculation currently and maybe permanently.

[wsmurdoch]

The only times I used something other than US dollars, UK pounds, or the local currency to pay for anything, I have used Marlboro cigarettes. I carried them still in the carton with the cellophane wrappers intact on each pack. They were 'as good as gold'. Only once did I have the recipient open a pack, and tap out the cigarettes before smiling.

Oh, I take that back. We have traded canned goods, Girl Scout cookies, and beer for fish.

Bitcoin, gold, or silver? Never.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

The only times I used something other than US dollars, UK pounds, or the local currency to pay for anything, I have used Marlboro cigarettes. I carried them still in the carton with the cellophane wrappers intact on each pack. They were 'as good as gold'. Only once did I have the recipient open a pack, and tap out the cigarettes before smiling.

Oh, I take that back. We have traded canned goods, Girl Scout cookies, and beer for fish.

Bitcoin, gold, or silver? Never.

I’m not sure if you recognize the downside risk of fiat currencies vs gold, silver and cryptocurrency which are all based on a limited supply commodity.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I’m sorry but you are completely wrong. There is no endgame with lack of investors... actually there is only a limited amount of bitcoin available and when all has been mined you can only get it when someone is willing to sell it to you. The opposite of Ponzi schemes.

People can use it for whatever they want. US$ is used for savings as well, nothing wrong with that. Bitcoin success has already been established, it can’t be cancelled and it’s value has been established by worldwide acceptance. If one wants to speculate then a brand new cryptocurrency is the way to go.

Blockchain was invented as integral part of Bitcoin. The only reason it exists outside of Bitcoin is that the other digital currencies copied it. If you understand blockchain technology, you understand Bitcoin and would not make those erroneous claims.

My observation of ignorance was not meant as an insult.

The number of bitcoins doesn't have anything to do with determining if it's a ponzi scheme. A ponzi doesn't incorporate a company or product ever intended to produce a profit to support the price. It's purely dependent on new investors driving up the price...can't drive up the price unless someone is buying into the ponzi.

As far as usefulness, I didn't ask if "could" be used. I asked what it can do "better" than existing methods. No one cancels a ponzi, they collapse all on their own...just really hard to predict when it will happen. Until it does collapse, people point out how it's clearly unstoppable.

Again, blockchain has real uses. Blockchain can and is used outside of bitcoin. Where it came from is irrelevant. It's like MySpace and FaceBook...MySpace did social media first. FaceBook copied much of the format. MySpace is no more.

Go up and tell your wife or mother, she's ignorant and come back and tell us if she takes it as an insult. We'll try not to laugh if you have a black eye.