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sailnow2011 · 10-07-2016, 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sea Dreaming

I wish this statement were true. Sadly our police force is increasingly reactive and fearful. And while this does not mean police kill, there are many instances where the police over react, engage law abiding people with excess force.
Of course we must continue to support the police and use common sense and follow instructions form police. But there is no denying that our force needs new training. The old stuff isnt working.

Based on the number of cops killed, I believe use of force is in just proportions. I carry a loaded, concealed gun every single day. If I get pulled over, my hands stay on the steering wheel, while I tell the officer that I have a legal gun, and where it is. I wait for the police to decide what happens next. I have only had one that drew his gun and said "open the door from the outside and get on the ground, SLOWLY. I was not shot, even by the New York cop who overreacted, because I did what he said to the letter, and slowly.

Its about training the population to respect the police and follow instruction.
People want to have a trial on the side of the road and resist, that is how you get shot. Every one of the black folks killed that made the news, resisted.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

pickpaul · 10-07-2016, 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Black sailors are very rare. I have no idea why, as I know of many that are very wealthy personally, and could afford much more boat then I can.

So cruisers being rare makes a thread for them off topic for Cruisers Forum? No wonder they are rare.

Sea Dreaming · 10-07-2016, 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Based on the number of cops killed, I believe use of force is in just proportions. I carry a loaded, concealed gun every single day. If I get pulled over, my hands stay on the steering wheel, while I tell the officer that I have a legal gun, and where it is. I wait for the police to decide what happens next. I have only had one that drew his gun and said "open the door from the outside and get on the ground, SLOWLY. I was not shot, even by the New York cop who overreacted, because I did what he said to the letter, and slowly.

Its about training the population to respect the police and follow instruction.
People want to have a trial on the side of the road and resist, that is how you get shot. Every one of the black folks killed that made the news, resisted.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

Are you black? I think your perception might change based on experience. I completely agree that respect and cooperation are needed with police. But I wonder how the same steps taken by a person of color is precieved by some police officers? If you are not differenly pigmented, Im not sure your own experience will translate. Of course, I can not know as I am white so my thoughts are speculation.

I just think 'rare' events are happening too often. Yes, the public probably does need to be educated. But Tamir Rice never had a chance to comply with officer requests. He was 12.

About the same time Tamir Rice was shot, a white teen in my neighborhood was stopped with a realistic pellet gun without an orage tip. He was not shot, he was white. I know this because the story was picked up by local news and sensationalised as "man seen with automatic weapon".

Ok Ill quit. My rant has nothing to do with with cruising.

MarkJ · 10-07-2016, 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Its about training the population to respect the police and follow instruction.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

Respect can only be earned. Not imposed.

Quote:

re·spect
rəˈspekt/
noun
1.
a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

You cannot order me, nor anyone on earth, to admire someone/something.

salticrak · 10-07-2016, 07:18

Interesting, I was in the military in South Africa. At one stage we where deployed to protect/guard police stations during the unrest there in the good 'ol bad days.Assault rifles where not seen by the general public before then on the streets outside of black townships.The message sent was clear.
As others have mentioned the police forces today in many western countries do seem to have a more para military look about them.

Rustic Charm · 10-07-2016, 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Based on the number of cops killed, I believe use of force is in just proportions. I carry a loaded, concealed gun every single day. If I get pulled over, my hands stay on the steering wheel, while I tell the officer that I have a legal gun, and where it is. I wait for the police to decide what happens next. I have only had one that drew his gun and said "open the door from the outside and get on the ground, SLOWLY. I was not shot, even by the New York cop who overreacted, because I did what he said to the letter, and slowly.

Its about training the population to respect the police and follow instruction.
People want to have a trial on the side of the road and resist, that is how you get shot. Every one of the black folks killed that made the news, resisted.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

OMG -

I'm not sure what is sadiest. That you posted this as if you believe it, or that you are so accustomed, so scared of your police over there that this is how you have to behave so as to 'how you (not) get shot'.

If the population has to be 'trained' like this, then there is something seriously f&*^%$# wrong with your country.

Rustic Charm · 10-07-2016, 23:03

Just for contrasting the different cultures, here is a video of an incident that happened over here in Australia in Jan 2015 and has just been to court this week.

NSW Police officer pulled gun on Canberra motorist charged with drink-driving

You American's will probably side with the cop in this post. But to me as an ex cop of 14 years I and most of social media find this cop's behaviour appauling. He needs retraining at the very least. And the magistrate (Judge) who heard the case has really criticised him.

You don't go pointing guns at members of the public in this country, unless they are pointing a gun or knife at you. You certainly dont go shooting people when you ask them for their license.

Dulcesuenos · 10-07-2016, 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Every one of the black folks killed that made the news, resisted.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

You seriously might want to check your facts on that.
There's also many videos out there of cops shooting unarmed blacks who were just sitting or even laying there un provoking when the officer decided to " air them out" for no apparent reason. Just Google it , and while your at it Google crooked cops, cops videos planting evidence, etc etc and you'll find how wonderful and uncorrupt our police force truly is.

Sent from my PLT1077G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

hoppy · 10-07-2016, 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Based on the number of cops killed, I believe use of force is in just proportions. I carry a loaded, concealed gun every single day. If I get pulled over, my hands stay on the steering wheel, while I tell the officer that I have a legal gun, and where it is. I wait for the police to decide what happens next. I have only had one that drew his gun and said "open the door from the outside and get on the ground, SLOWLY. I was not shot, even by the New York cop who overreacted, because I did what he said to the letter, and slowly.

Its about training the population to respect the police and follow instruction.
People want to have a trial on the side of the road and resist, that is how you get shot. Every one of the black folks killed that made the news, resisted.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

Given that the US has the highest murder rate of all western first world democracies, I'm surprised that more countries don't issue warnings to their citizens.

There is something wrong with any country if a significant proportion of law abiding citizens feel the need to own a gun for their and their families protection.

Rustic Charm · 10-07-2016, 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

Based on the number of cops killed, I believe use of force is in just proportions. I carry a loaded, concealed gun every single day. If I get pulled over, my hands stay on the steering wheel, while I tell the officer that I have a legal gun, and where it is. I wait for the police to decide what happens next. I have only had one that drew his gun and said "open the door from the outside and get on the ground, SLOWLY. I was not shot, even by the New York cop who overreacted, because I did what he said to the letter, and slowly.

Its about training the population to respect the police and follow instruction.
People want to have a trial on the side of the road and resist, that is how you get shot. Every one of the black folks killed that made the news, resisted.

The problem is not the cop, but the disrespect that people have for them.

And at least at this time I'm not aware that Philando Castile's fatal shooting was a case ofresisting. According to his girl friend and what she was saying to the police officer, the cop asked for his id and when he reached for it, the cop shot him..

chuckr · 11-07-2016, 00:38

We usually don't chime on these types of posting but will - First we kinda agree with Hoppy - more countries should issue warnings about the USA.

We have been to over 45 countries so far and some are a lot more dangerous than the USA and some a lot safer. We proudly fly the USA flag on our stern and some have suggested we remove it for our safety and we laugh and say he@@ no. We are safer here than in the USA.

Others have suggested we not go to XZY country and again we evaluate and say you got to be kidding. At times we have wandered into the wrong part of a town and say whoops we should probably head that way to get out of here. Once in Jamaica we were headed to a small market when a guy stepped in front of us with a uniform on and asked where we were going and we told him and said no you should not go beyond here. We didn't -
But in Miami - where we had our last house - there are parts that we would not go in the daylight and I had job where I had to go to a business meeting in a very iffy iffy part of town with a contractor who would not go there without a gun. And they guy we met had the biggest body guard I have ever seen.

When we were last in the Bahamas, that was a long time ago, we only locked our dink in Nassau but the minute we returned to the USA we always locked it up. Of course in the Carib we locked it up too.

One of the problems as we see it is the aggressive attitude of the police on the water. We have been stopped underway in a couple of countries and have been boarded and searched on our entrance and exit from a number of ports. In each country except the USA the folks who have come aboard have been courtesy and polite and insisited that when they went through the boat that someone go with them. At times we even give them flashlights to assist them. We got stopped by Homeland Security off Florida and two of them came on board and one stayed in the cockpit with his hand on his gun and held us there while the other went below by himself and went through stuff. No need for that as there were 2 more guys in the boat they came in.

We constantly tell people we are safer here than in the USA and truly believe that.

Rustic Charm · 11-07-2016, 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckr

We usually don't chime on these types of posting but will - First we kinda agree with Hoppy - more countries should issue warnings about the USA.

We have been to over 45 countries so far and some are a lot more dangerous than the USA and some a lot safer. We proudly fly the USA flag on our stern and some have suggested we remove it for our safety and we laugh and say he@@ no. We are safer here than in the USA.

Others have suggested we not go to XZY country and again we evaluate and say you got to be kidding. At times we have wandered into the wrong part of a town and say whoops we should probably head that way to get out of here. Once in Jamaica we were headed to a small market when a guy stepped in front of us with a uniform on and asked where we were going and we told him and said no you should not go beyond here. We didn't -
But in Miami - where we had our last house - there are parts that we would not go in the daylight and I had job where I had to go to a business meeting in a very iffy iffy part of town with a contractor who would not go there without a gun. And they guy we met had the biggest body guard I have ever seen.

When we were last in the Bahamas, that was a long time ago, we only locked our dink in Nassau but the minute we returned to the USA we always locked it up. Of course in the Carib we locked it up too.

One of the problems as we see it is the aggressive attitude of the police on the water. We have been stopped underway in a couple of countries and have been boarded and searched on our entrance and exit from a number of ports. In each country except the USA the folks who have come aboard have been courtesy and polite and insisited that when they went through the boat that someone go with them. At times we even give them flashlights to assist them. We got stopped by Homeland Security off Florida and two of them came on board and one stayed in the cockpit with his hand on his gun and held us there while the other went below by himself and went through stuff. No need for that as there were 2 more guys in the boat they came in.

We constantly tell people we are safer here than in the USA and truly believe that.

Thanks chuckr, very informative.

adoxograph · 11-07-2016, 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailnow2011

... I carry a loaded, concealed gun every single day. If I get pulled over, my hands stay on the steering wheel, while I tell the officer that I have a legal gun, and where it is. ...

I don't understand why anyone would carry a loaded concealed gun. I'm 53 years old and never ever in my life was in a situation where I felt the need for carrying a weapon.

But then I was born in Austria, lived in Germany, the UK and France before moving to Australia and can't really assess the situation in the US.

svrevelations · 11-07-2016, 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by avb3

If this thread has anything to do with sailing or cruising, let's hear it. Otherwise, it is waaaay off topic for this forum.

I disagree. Many of us have never been to the US and have no clue of the "usual" procedures. It is good to read about this and have a deeper understanding.

In South Africa, you would normally get out of the vehicle and walk towards the police after being stopped. However, this now seems to be changing and it is best to remain in the vehicle and let the police approach you. The problem here is that you are not always sure that it is indeed the "real" police stopping you.