Trouble with paying crew?

[Olddan1943]

I have always been told, as my fuzzy memory remembers it, unless you are a licensed Captain and your boat is licensed and insured for charter, you cannot charge them for 'anything' nor can you accept payment for anything. That includes but not limited to, tying up to the fuel dock, leaving the boat with the expectation of a full tank of fuel and/or a box of ship's stores upon return. In fact, if they pay for food or fuel, you must reimburse them the full amount.

This entire thing is further complicated if your boat is constructed outside the US. I think, you almost need an act of Congress or perhaps just some maritime govenering organization, to be or act as a charter. )(Fuzzy memory again.)
I have worked under the following philosophy: If I invite you, you pay nothing, end of story.

That means, you cannot 'pay' with/by "having sex."
That is going to make for a very long trip.

[Olddan1943]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

I have always been told, as my fuzzy memory remembers it, unless you are a licensed Captain and your boat is licensed and insured for charter, you cannot charge them for 'anything' nor can you accept payment for anything. That includes but not limited to, tying up to the fuel dock, leaving the boat with the expectation of a full tank of fuel and/or a box of ship's stores upon return. In fact, if they pay for food or fuel, you must reimburse them the full amount.

This entire thing is further complicated if your boat is constructed outside the US. I think, you almost need an act of Congress or perhaps just some maritime govenering organization, to be or act as a charter. Fuzzy memory again.
I have worked under the following philosophy: If I invite you, you pay nothing, end of story.

That means, you cannot 'pay' with "having sex."

That is going to make for a very long trip.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by Olddan1943

I have always been told, as my fuzzy memory remembers it, unless you are a licensed Captain and your boat is licensed and insured for charter, you cannot charge them for 'anything' nor can you accept payment for anything. That includes but not limited to, tying up to the fuel dock, leaving the boat with the expectation of a full tank of fuel and/or a box of ship's stores upon return. In fact, if they pay for food or fuel, you must reimburse them the full amount.

OK I quit ... It looks like you're all agreed.

If I charter a bareboat yacht with a group of friends ... it's not my boat, but I'm still skipper since I'm the one with experience, and it's all paid on my card ... You guys are telling me that it is illegal to deny a place on the trip to anyone who doesn't volunteer to contribute to the costs of charter, fuel, food and dockage? Why does ownership of the boat matter?

[john61ct]

Because the owner renting out the boat has all the proper legal requirements to operate the commercial service.

A group of **customers** sharing in that expense and the others doesn't matter.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Because the owner renting out the boat has all the proper legal requirements to operate the commercial service.

A group of **customers** sharing in that expense and the others doesn't matter.

Of course it matters ... I couldn't ask my friends to contribute more than their share of expenses. That would be a commercial transaction making them my customers, sub-letting the boat as it were ... so we're back to the original definition posted by dockhead that the dividing line is "voluntary sharing actual expenses of the voyage".

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

And those expenses had better match the expenses come up with by the official who's trying to bust you.

Sure but if you've ever ran a business it's silly how easy it is to rack up expenses.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

But it's not my expenses being defrayed ... I'm paying my share ... why shouldn't you? Just because I'm skipper doesn't mean I should bankroll your trip. It's a pleasure cruise remember, you're not on board as a passenger, nor as an employee ... but for your pleasure and mine.

If it's a commercial operation, of course you shouldn't be expected to cover the passenger expenses. Of course, then you have to meet the commercial rules.

But to claim it's not a commercial operation, any chipping in must be voluntary which means you have to assume that you are bankrolling the trip and it's a pleasant surprise if they chip in.

[Pelagic]

From a strictly "Legal" interpretation, if you were asking for a donation to embark on a "Seamanship Awareness Course" where your itinerary covered everything from ancient navigational studies, to water sports,
.....would that still be defined as carriage for financial consideration?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

Of course it matters ... I couldn't ask my friends to contribute more than their share of expenses. That would be a commercial transaction making them my customers, sub-letting the boat as it were ... so we're back to the original definition posted by dockhead that the dividing line is "voluntary sharing actual expenses of the voyage".

Assuming you don't have a captains license and you made it mandatory to cover a portion of your charter in exchange for you acting as the captain, you have created a commercial operation. (as stated previously it may be difficult to catch you but that doesn't make it legitimate)

A better way to handle it is to charge your friends for handling the booking arrangements and then paying an equal share. The net effect is the same but you aren't being paid to captain without a license.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

But to claim it's not a commercial operation, any chipping in must be voluntary which means you have to assume that you are bankrolling the trip and it's a pleasant surprise if they chip in.

your implication is that they have to volunteer their contribution after the end of the trip ... why can't they volunteer their contribution before the start?

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Assuming you don't have a captains license and you made it mandatory to cover a portion of your charter in exchange for you acting as the captain, you have created a commercial operation.

No no no. Having paid all the expenses up front for this hypothetical trip, I now need to invite friends to come with me. Some of my friends will "volunteer" to cover their share of the expenses, some may not ... It's not mandatory. Nor is it dictated which friends I do invite, purely coincidence that on this expensive trip the selection was made from among those who volunteered to contribute before I made the booking. Those too poor or cheap to volunteer a contribution, will be invited to come sailing with me on my cheap little 27fter at a later date.

[john61ct]

For the umpteenth time.

All fine and good until something goes wrong, and people pretending to be friends are suing you, legitimate competitors asking authorities to punish you.

[Kelkara]

Originally Posted by john61ct

For the umpteenth time.

All fine and good until something goes wrong, and people pretending to be friends are suing you, legitimate competitors asking authorities to punish you.

As long as all they contributed to was their share of "actual expenses" of the voyage, and it was "voluntary", there should be nothing to go wrong ... What you're objecting to is that because the payment was made before the boat left the dock it somehow wasn't "voluntary".

I knew there was a reason I single-hand ... when my crew tries to sue me I keel-haul them ... which reminds me, the boat must be due a scrub.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by john61ct

For the umpteenth time.

All fine and good until something goes wrong, and people pretending to be friends are suing you, legitimate competitors asking authorities to punish you.

Absolutely agree John, which is why I never consider taking on paying crew, even here in the Philippines, where the whole charter thing is in its infancy and not monitored (Yet! [emoji4]) .

Often when anchored near an upmarket resort, planning on a dinner ashore, Resort guests and even the resort owners ask if I would consider chartering?

I never do it!

You just don't want that liability issue to be muddied up with rights of a Passenger and Innkeeper's liability laws.

Good friends, who do join me, always find a way to repay me in many ways and money is never discussed.

More importantly, they accept the risk and rules of cruising with me as guests, which is a high safety standard of behavior.

To that end, I have made up a personal "Stargazer Safety, Operational and Information Manual", (SSOIM) which is required reading for all who join us on a cruise.

The back of this binder has a Guest Book to sign with the acknowledgement that they have read and understand all of SSOIM and accept their liability.

Then, if an incident happened where a guest got badly hurt and they wanted to pass on the liability to me, they have to prove that their injury was not a result of their own willful neglect.... to follow SSOIM.

That is the best insurance you can have!

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Kelkara

your implication is that they have to volunteer their contribution after the end of the trip ... why can't they volunteer their contribution before the start?

If it's truly voluntary, you can.

If you are going to play games, doing it after allows you to "forget" to ask for the voluntary donation if something goes bad.