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Old 23-02-2011, 18:23   #91
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Re: Tinned Wire

Very nice work Mark. I can tell that you have been at it for a while.

I can't believe that people think that crimps are better. All of this talk about vibration killing solder joints make me wonder how cars keep running with all of the solder joints they use. Oh right, they live in a better environment. Funny though that all of the vehicle manufacturers ban anything but solder except at fine terminals and for terminals they fuse them using thermal welding.

To really add fuel to the fire I will submit that properly twisted wires are a form of mechanical connection. I believe the idea behind limiting solder the way the ABYC does is to prevent people from laying 2 wires beside each other and bridging the gap with solder. If twisting wires isn't a form of mechanical connection then why do we knot ropes or why is a twisted rope stronger than the individual strands? Do we not use twisted wire to lock bolts and nuts? Hell, we better stop that practice. Hand me that stainless tye wire and a crimp!
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Old 24-02-2011, 09:45   #92
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Re: Tinned Wire

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Originally Posted by KEG View Post
Funny though that all of the vehicle manufacturers ban anything but solder except at fine terminals and for terminals they fuse them using thermal welding.
Really? That's interesting news because a good friend of mine who lives in MI works for a big wire harness manufacturer who supplies the automotive industry among others. I just spoke with her today and according to her about 95% of the harnesses that go out of their plant are crimped not soldered. While they may be inside a plastic connector, and well sealed, the pin to the wires are mostly crimped. They see very few specs coming through for solder. Go to a bone yard and cut open some of those connectors and you'll see inside that most of them are crimped not soldered.

Another friend works for a large Jet manufacturer, I have physically been to that plant, he's the guy I get my crimp tools through, I've seen the huge panels where they lay up the massive wiring harnesses that are crimped. The aerospace industry, among others, uses lots of crimps...

Here's an interesting read:

Fixing An Aircraft Engine Wire


Quote:
Originally Posted by KEG View Post
To really add fuel to the fire I will submit that properly twisted wires are a form of mechanical connection. I believe the idea behind limiting solder the way the ABYC does is to prevent people from laying 2 wires beside each other and bridging the gap with solder.

And to put water on your fire I have clarified this with both John Adey at ABYC and Eric Johnson, before he left, and wire twisting, eg; Western Union spices etc. do not count as a mechanical connection under E-11.

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If twisting wires isn't a form of mechanical connection then why do we knot ropes or why is a twisted rope stronger than the individual strands? Do we not use twisted wire to lock bolts and nuts? Hell, we better stop that practice. Hand me that stainless tye wire and a crimp!
WU splices were initially designed for solid copper not very, very finely multi-stranded copper, this is not very different from monel or stainless seizing wire in that we are not twisting finely stranded monel seizing wire...

As always you con do whatever you want on your own boat. As one who has been on far too many boats to count I have seen lots of failures of BOTH crimps and solder and crimp/solder. The only common denominator is that in all those cases either the wrong crimp tool was used or the soldering practices were poor. 95% of the solder joints I see are done poorly/incorrectly and I see a lot more crimps done well than solder because it is easier to do well.
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Old 24-02-2011, 14:10   #93
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Re: Tinned Wire

Space industry use crimps
Aerospace industry use crimps
Automotive industry use crimps
Nuclear industry use crimps

You can stand on your head in the wet bilge of a yacht and TRY and get a good soldered joint if you want.
I'll use good quality crimps and happily guarantee my work.
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Old 24-02-2011, 15:05   #94
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Re: Tinned Wire

Artif...

That is why I never just solder, I crimp! It in no way relies on solder to remain connected electrically, or mechanically.

Now, after I make a proper crimp, I heat only the eye part of the connector with a pencil thin torch, and using VERY thin solder, (like a mechanical pencil lead), I make a quick touch to the eye end of the wire sleeve. This is an amount of solder about 1/4th the size of a BB, that seals the wire sleeve. It in no way weakens the wire, which is well fixed, and even if the solder just vanished, (which is about impossible), then what would be left is a "properly crimped connection", well sealed with heatshrink. JUST LIKE THE INDUSTRY STANDARD!

This solder connection is easy to do, just time consuming. I do them from the top of the mast as well, if the wind isn't to high.

The reason that industry relies on crimps in the above applications, is cost effectiveness. They do use solder joints, for their superior electrical connection, in printed circuit boards and the like, because it is done robotically, therefore cost effective. They know it is a better electrical connection!

Crimp connections, with good materials, done right, last a long time. The thing is that mine stay more electrically conductive, pretty much 100%, for perhaps 100 years.

Industry is not interested in this level of work, as it is not necessary for what they are trying to accomplish.

I shoot for the highest possible level of connection, and least possible amount of moisture getting to the wire. (like "0")

I don't mean to point the finger at the guys who don't do this. Your joints won't fail within 15 years, and the very slight current drain on EVERY connection, all over the boat, will be chalked up as the nature of old boats. Most people would not even notice.

I have known a lot of pros over the years, that think my "soldering after crimping", is "over the top" too. It is however "better", IF done the way I have described.

I also do glass work, bottom jobs, spray painting, vacuum bagging fabrications, etc., in a way that is way beyond what "they" do. (My hard dodger alone took over 1,000 hours to build, so did this planing dinghy) They were filler jobs to occupy downtime in our big boat project.

This is why "they" make a good living, and I struggle. What the market calls for, if one is to be a good businessman, is LOTS of jobs, done just GOODENUF, really quickly, for the least possible amount of money. If it doesn't start to fail for 5 or 7 years, the customer never makes the connection or feels ripped off.

I am not suggesting that anyone trying to do this for a living SHOULD do it my way, just that if a boat owner wants the best possible connections, and has the basic skills, this is how to do it. Yes, I have been pegged as a "perfectionist", although I never liked the term.

So, you guys who want to do things otherwise, (the normal way), go for it. I redly admit that you're the 99% majority, and there aren't many in my camp on this.

M.
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Old 24-02-2011, 15:16   #95
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I don't do boat building I don't do vacuum bagging I do 28 years of industrial electronics design. I crimp ( properly). ( irrespective of whether I make a living out of it)

Dave
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Old 24-02-2011, 15:29   #96
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Re: Tinned Wire

Mark
I wasn't questioning your methods in the slightest.
You seem to have the patience and attention to detail that puts many to shame.
I was commenting on Kegs post.
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Old 24-02-2011, 15:52   #97
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Re: Tinned Wire

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I don't do boat building I don't do vacuum bagging I do 28 years of industrial electronics design. I crimp ( properly). ( irrespective of whether I make a living out of it)

Dave
Dave, you therefore have no way to know what your crimps look like in the bilge of a boat, 25 or 30 years later. I do! I work on old crap wiring all of the time. I'm talking about green, corroded, copper wire that falls apart in my hand. It is in every brand of old boat, even the good ones, that are really old. And NOT just in the bilge, everywhere. If they don't break, the issue left is that they conduct current poorly. The device at the end works, but uses more current due to all of the extra resistance in the connections. If this is times 200 crimps on the boat, it really becomes an issue. If wired the way I do, my wires never need replacement or reworking of the connections, in the life of the boat!

I already admitted that my standard is beyond the "accepted industry standard", and what you do is pretty much "the industry standard".

I started out as a 15 year old, working at two different manufacturing plants, doing things according to "the industry standard". My thought then as now, is that "the industry standard" is to low, and I figured I'd just build my own. It HAD to be better than what I witnessed.

Boat manufacturing has come a long way since then, and now there are a number of exceptional companies out there, but even with them, when I look at how 30 seconds here, or 5 minutes there, could save tens of thousands of dollars, 20 years later, I can't help thinking, that someone who has decades of experience FIXing these boats, should set the industry standard. The thing is, "the industry standard" is what is cost effective, and keeps these business afloat. Catch 22!

I can't fault them or you for just trying to make a living, and I don't...
I certainly meant no disparagement toward your profession, they have to make a living too. The "proper" way.

Happy crimps... Now, where is my torch & solder... M.
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Old 24-02-2011, 15:54   #98
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Re: Tinned Wire

Artif,
My apologies for the confusion.
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Old 24-02-2011, 16:33   #99
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Re: Tinned Wire

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Originally Posted by KEG View Post
To really add fuel to the fire I will submit that properly twisted wires are a form of mechanical connection. I believe the idea behind limiting solder the way the ABYC does is to prevent people from laying 2 wires beside each other and bridging the gap with solder.
Finally. Yes it is. A proper Western Union (or whatever they call it now), pigtail, or t-splice is mechanically secure. The solder is applied for electrical security. It increases the surface area of the splice, increasing conductivity. It also prevents corrosion between the two conductors.

If allowed to flex or work, it could fail. So could a crimp connection. IMO, both need to be properly supported.

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Space industry use crimps
Aerospace industry use crimps
Automotive industry use crimps
Nuclear industry use crimps

You can stand on your head in the wet bilge of a yacht and TRY and get a good soldered joint if you want.
I'll use good quality crimps and happily guarantee my work.
Apollo 1
Swissair 111
Any older Jaguar
Three Mile Island?

You make a good point about accessibility though- if I can barely reach it & can't see what I'm doing, a crimper is probably better than a hot soldering iron. I freely admit that I have used both soldered splices & crimp connectors, depending on the circumstances. I don't think there's any magic bullet solution here, & as with all electrical/electronics, it's as much art as it is science.

One more remark regarding heat shrinking a soldered connection- be careful. I've seen, in the case of smaller conductors, where the heat applied to shrink the tubing melted the solder & caused the splice to fail (a mechanic, not me ).
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Old 24-02-2011, 16:43   #100
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Mark I didn't quote your post as it's long. I own a boat built in 1984. If has over 20.000 sea miles on it and uses un tinned wire ( as do nearly all European boats)

The copper shows no signs of deterioration . The crimp joints are as good as the day they were made. The resistance is appropriate

What I meant with my comment as a professional is that I've applied the standards , research and usage feedback that relates to the subject matter not " perceived" solutions. The defense aerospace and car industries use crimps because (a) it's works (b) it's fast (b) it's cost effective. The main factor is (a) particularly for aerospace and defense. Solder is actually not a good method of connecting anything it gets used for a variety of reasons mostly historical. ( and it's cheap).

Very few people can solder well ( especially with the latest non lead varieties) where there is a significant heat sink ( like a large spade connector) the chances of a higher resistance connection are high.

Lastly let's look at it scientifically. What does the solder achieve. A proper crimp will not fail mechanically, the connector will distort or the cable break before a proper crimp gives up. Secondly electrically connection is very good with good contact between the crimp and the wire.

Solder was only ever added to crimp joints because the crimps weren't done right. The preponderance of thoses cheap insulated crimps and the stupid non rachet crimp tools has convinced a lot of so called DIY electricians ( of which the boat industry seems to be full of) that solder is required.

By all means solder ,then use proper solder tags not crimps. So called " belt and braces" solutions are merely a cover up for un professional bodge jobs and lack of any real knowledge.

In our labs at the time we investigated soldered wires in very few cases with multi-stranded wire did the solder penetrate and wet out all the strands. Solder did not prevent the ingress of moisture. Solder adds nothing to the party

Learn how to do good crimps for starters the tooling costs about 200 dollars. Then you'll realise that solder adds nothing

Lastly contary to your comments solder dies work harden the metal and causes a stress point which in the presence of vibration causes failure.

The simple fact is that proponents of tinned wire simply overlook that the vast majority of wire in production boats isn't tinned, such boats are now 30 40 years old and the ones I've seen once not immersed are fine.

It matters not that you believe otherwise, for you are in the realms of " faith" on the other hand science, engineering etc differs.

Dave
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Old 24-02-2011, 16:55   #101
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Quote:
Apollo 1
Swissair 111
Any older Jaguar
Three Mile Island?
With your knowledge of these events you might as well have added titanic for example swissair 111 was a electrical arcing issues , cable flammability issues and other things. Please let's not decend into nonsense
I worked on old jags too crimps were not the problem believe you me.

Dave
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Old 24-02-2011, 17:00   #102
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Re: Tinned Wire

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Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post

Apollo 1
Electrical short, no proof weather or not crimps were at fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post
Swissair 111
Possible overloaded wiring due to poor installation of entertainment system, again crimps not at fault.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post
Any older Jaguar
Most faults on old jags are down to the piss poor components used, they were built as cheaply as possible with the obvious results.
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Originally Posted by Zednotzee View Post
Three Mile Island?
Stuck mechanical valve and poor operator training, again no electrical faults.

Any more?


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One more remark regarding heat shrinking a soldered connection- be careful. I've seen, in the case of smaller conductors, where the heat applied to shrink the tubing melted the solder & caused the splice to fail (a mechanic, not me ).
You have just hit the reason soldered joints are not recommended, heat can cause failure, overload of wiring or external heat source, it doesn't matter.

Your boat, your choice, do as you please.
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