Tinned Wire

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by judybuddy

Maine Sail,

How did you cut the connector to show the crimp and for it to be so shiny, like a mirror with the tree in it?

Judy and Buddy
S/V Windwalker
Hull 132

Cut it with a Fein Multi-master then polished it to try and expose any imperfections. Used a jewlers rouge and a metal buffing cotton wheel on my bench buffer (looks like a grinder only with longer shafts).

[SabreKai]

Well, I just spent a hour being educated on Milspec and aircraft grade crimping and terminals. My head hurts. Perhaps when I go to do the wiring on Sabre Dance I'll spend that kind of money and do it right. For now I will go with the standard automotive terminals and Canadian Tire crimper. Otherwise I'll be out about $500 on a boat I already sold at a loss. The panel will get built to the best of my ability with materials at hand.

Sabre

[hellosailor]

Sabre-
As long as that CT crimper is a decent $40-ish ratcheting crimper, you're find. If it is one of the "500 pieces for $10!" KITS...dig a little deeper. It really is "good enough" for most purposes, to stop short of an FAA-certified $600 crimper.

[um saudade]

The cut-off photos are a joke. Fine copper is very soft and tends to smear. You can not cut it with the finest bladed shear and reveal a perfect cross section. You think you are looking at a valid cross section after you grind it off? With what you have done there is no way of ascertaining anything.

Yes, yout can make pretty good connections with the right tools. What I am saying is professional people can make darn good connections with simple hand tools.

proper crimps form a gas tight connection, moisture may wick between the conductors but not between the crimp mating faces and the associated conductors

You want to translate that? I thought we were talking about keeping moisture out of the connection, the whole connection. Is it not important to seal the whole connector to the wire or do we just need to seal the strands that happen to contact the body of the terminal?

Seems we can use very expensive tools and then we rely on the perfection of that crimp to keep the terminal from corroding or we can use much simpler tools and some common sense and that will stand up to severe conditions without degradation.

Or do we use the expensive tools and then seal the connection anyway? If you are in the business of production it makes sense to have the best and fastest. Not necessarily so for the average do-it yourself boat owner.

You got me all confused now!

[delmarrey]

It all comes down to one thing! "You get what you pay for!"

One will just out last the other, but for how long? Only the user can make the difference!

[KEG]

I am wondering why there is such an attraction to crimps and an aversion to solder with heat shrink. The way I read the ABYC is that solder is legal if supported properly. Solder will always give a better, lower resistance connection if done properly and the idea that it will melt out if a wire is overheated is bunk. The very nature of a proper solder connection ensures less resistance and therefore lower heat. I have repaired hundreds of electrical shorts and resulting fires and have not seen a solder connection failure due to melting from the short.

My experience has shown that most wire fatigue failures are caused by wires being too short. The lack of stress loops and drip loops create most terminal failures. A proper stress loop and solder connection should outlast any crimp connection. Every solder joint failure I have seen was from improper soldering by the person making the solder joint.

IMHO the polished cutaways are a joke. The copper has melted and smeared to fill the voids. Good salesmanship though.

Matthew

[delmarrey]

46 C.F.R. PART 183—ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION

§ 183.340 Cable and wiring requirements.

(g) Each connection to a conductor or terminal part of a conductor must be made within an enclosure and have either:
(1) A pressure type connector on each conductor;
(2) A solder lug on each conductor;
(3) A splice made with a pressure type connector to a flexible lead or conductor; or
(4) A splice that is soldered, brazed, or welded to a flexible lead or conductor.
(h) A connector or lug of the set screw type must not be used with a stranded conductor smaller than No. 14 AWG except if there is a nonrotating follower that travels with the set screw and makes pressure contact with the conductor.

ABYC- E-11
-11.16.3.6. Twist on connectors, i.e., wire nuts, shall not be used.
11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit. If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.
EXCEPTION: Battery lugs with a solder contact length of not less than 1.5 times the diameter of the conductor.
NOTE: When a stranded conductor is soldered, the soldered portion of the conductor becomes a solid strand conductor, and flexing can cause the conductor to break at the end of the solder joint unless adequate additional support is provided.
11.16.3.8. Solderless crimp on connectors shall be attached with the type of crimping tools designed for the connector used, and that will produce a connection meeting the requirements of E-11.16.3.3.

It's suppose to be crimp then solider! Not just solider only. Its a built in safety factor.
The authorities are trying to make the regs idiot proof, which will never happen. There is a new breed of idiot every generation. They're not allowed to self terminate any more, so they are multiplying like rabbits.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by KEG

... The way I read the ABYC is that solder is legal if supported properly...

I suggest you re-read.

ABYC- E-11 states, in part:
11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.
If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

Accordingly, a soldered connection must have another mechanical means of connection, such as a crimp.

[KEG]

As I said, a proper solder connection. A proper solder connection involves crimping the lug or splice joint connector onto the wires and then solder the joint. I think I also indicated that improper solder joints fail.

ABYC goes on to require support.

While I would enjoy to argue with you, I believe what I said is correct and you are arguing semantics.

[SabreKai]

Originally Posted by GordMay

I suggest you re-read.

ABYC- E-11 states, in part:
11.16.3.7. Solder shall not be the sole means of mechanical connection in any circuit.
If soldered, the connection shall be so located or supported as to minimize flexing of the conductor where the solder changes the flexible conductor into a solid conductor.

Accordingly, a soldered connection must have another mechanical means of connection, such as a crimp.

Umm Gord, I think you are interpreting that incorrectly. Crimping and soldering is fine. That second part means that the wire needs to be supported so that the j unction between the wire and the connecter can not flex. In other words, the lug goes on the terminal strip, and then the wire has to be tied down to the same structure that the terminal is mounted on so as to prevent the wire from moving or flexing relative to the terminal block. Say 1 inch back from the crimped on lug, a tie down block and zip tie.


Sabre

[Mark Johnson]

In my business as well as my own boat, I would only consider the highest quality double jacketed, finely stranded, tinned copper wire. (usually a size larger than I could get away with, for the least amount of v drop). The batteries on one end, and electrical device on the other, will get changed out on occasion, but the wiring harness should last the life of the boat! IF done right.

I have been at this as both vocation and avocation for 40 years, and the work on my own boat has allowed me to open connections 15 years and 20,000 miles later to see what really stands the test of time. Mine are still shiny and pristine after 15 years.

I always remove the plastic sleeve and slide on an ample length of adhesive lined heat shrink tubing. Then I crimp the eye well, and solder the eye end, just enough to fill the barrel of the crimp, but not go down the wire. Afterwards I heat the heatshrink until the goo oozes out, then the wire & eye is permanently sealed, as well as a 100% connection. I also tie the wire run about every 6-8", from one end of the boat to the other, so that it can NOT flex.

For low end boats, my clients frequently ask for the "standard crimp" without soldering, to save bucks, as I work by the hour. Above the bilge, this is also fine. I still try to seal the end of the wire eye with the heat shrink if I can, as over decades, moisture can wick 3' up the wire!

The "deluxe" treatment at the top, eliminates this possibility, because the barrel of the crimp is soldered closed.

I do the same (crimp, solder, heat shrink) treatment with large cables, like battery and windlass cables as well.

For my own boat, on the most important "Lightning ground" wire and "house battery" connections... (where I am on my own time), I scotchbrite the battery lugs & cable eyes, then wash with Iso alcohol. Next I apply "Jet Lube" electrically conductive grease to the interface surfaces, and mount the wire. This is followed by removing all excess grease with mineral spirits, followed by alcohol. The final step is to paint the cable end, lug, eye, and even a bit of the battery top, with 6 coats of "Liquidlectrictape", 15 minutes apart. (Yeah, not cost effective as a pro!)

Done this way, I know from experience, that when I change out my house bank 10 or 11 years down the road, that the connections under this vinyl is a shiny, corrosion free, 100% connection!

Mark

[goboatingnow]

In 25 years of industrial electronics design I would have got fired if I soldered a crimp. In any situation where the cable ends may subject to vibration or movement soldered joint will fail. The area soldered work hardens

Secondly adhesive lined heat shrink is really only a mechanical aid. It is difficult if not impossible to prevent moisture ingress using adhesive lined heat shrink. ( in particular with female spade connectors. )

The emphasis on tinned wire is over done and seems to be a peculiar American obsession. Most European boats ( and far eastern) boats use un- tinned wire and they survive the ravages just fine ( or it's it that our side of the Atlantic is different )

Good splicing using brand named crimp ends and the manufacturer recommended tooling is the best. Strain relief can be integral to the crimp( best) or added via adhesive jackets. For proper procedures and practices see the car or aircraft harness industry. ( I used to do work for Packard Electric)

Dave

[Mark Johnson]

I was an ABYC member when I wired the above, and while I sometimes opted to do something differently, it was well researched and for a good reason.

There is no place where my crimps are subject to flexing or vibration, I have them fastened within a few inches of the crimp, and my ends are "fully submersible" for decades. I am certain of this. I don't use the little heat shrink crimps, I use bare eye crimps, and then put a piece of "Anchor" brand heat shrink 1.5 or 2" long on the small wires, or 4" long on the big ones. they are water proof in this length, if heated until a ring of goo oozes out.

The "hard spot if you solder myth" was partly perpetuated by an industry that couldn't make a living, if each crimp took 10 or 15 minutes rather than 30 seconds, and there are 200 to do. The theory was, that the wire would break at the "hard spot" after a solder.

If wires in a boat are attached only every 6' or 10', it might fail in 6 years rather than 8, but that is moot. Wires on a boat should not be allowed to move. Mine are cinch tied every few inches, for their entire run. When I wire a boat weather crimped, or crimped and soldered, I don't allow the wires to move. There is no "work hardening" as they neither work, are tugged on, pushed, nor vibrate.

In over 40 years of this practice of (crimp / soldered / heatshrunk) eye connections... I have yet to have one fail. This is in tens of thousands of crimps!

Because I built and then wired my own three boats, spanning a 36 year period, I have been in a unique position to observe the fruits of my labor, that other professionals are not. They don't know what their crimps look like 15 years later...

There are many things in the industry that are not done the best way, they are "the best way that can be done at a speed that is profitable and practical". (I built and wired my own house too). My way of doing things is neither practical nor particularly profitable, alas... as much as I try. Still, I would rather do the best possible work, than make the highest hourly wage.

I can see from your posts, however, that you have strong opinions about what I have said, and I don't agree with what you have said either.

I respectfully therefore, agree to disagree about the subject.

Happy crimps... Mark

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The emphasis on tinned wire is over done and seems to be a peculiar American obsession. Most European boats ( and far eastern) boats use un- tinned wire and they survive the ravages just fine ( or it's it that our side of the Atlantic is different )

On the East side of the pond, I believe, boat manufacturers also use cast iron for most of their keels. Could it be a matter of economics or the availability of lead products?

[goboatingnow]

Given that we dominate the worlds output of production boats I think you can take it that we know what were are doing with those cast iron keels

Dave