The Yard Guys

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

This ARC is certainly doing the guys in this and the rudder thread no favors. Production boats are looking better all the time.

Don't get too excited that Discover 57 had sorted out the rudder "equipment" problem and got back to the Transat...and a Bavaria 47 is heading for Cabo Verde. I guess it is not only for the views (even if it can be a personal matter, they don't give the boat as retired from the Transat).

[Polux]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

...

NOW PLEASE UNDERSTAND - I am taking NOTHING away from Minaret's boat. It is an incredible boat and he has done an absolutely tremendous job. Complete respect for that. I'm just using his as an example of cost/value because he put the numbers up here in the thread. Different people have different cost/value perspectives. And I completely respect his.

But I also think it's very important to keep such numbers in perspective. So that's what I'm trying to do.

There is only a way of losing more money then buying a new boat, it is to bring to new condition an outdated old boat.

Of course minaret boat is different since he made almost all the job and had only to pay for materials but if you pay a fully recovery of on an old boat, I mean, to new condition, you will lose an huge amount of money and would not even have the pleasure to sail a boat that is designed to the state of the art. I am not talking about a mass market main production boat. That is valid to all type of boats.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand how you can say that: The charter market buys just a small fraction of the Beneteau group production, less than 25%. It's a lot of boats, but 75% are bought by sailors. Beneteau and other mass production boats have interior distributions more adapted to charter (biggest number of berths) and for sailors (more storage space). That's about what makes a boat more suitable for charter than for private ownership. And anyway in what regards quality for the price there is no more demanding market than the charter one where on 4 years a boat is used as much as an average owner would use it for 15 years.

I was presuming, and you may be correct. Looking at the Beneteau S.A. latest annual report, one cannot determine the amount of sailboat sales in the various geographic areas, nor the size, nor the markets.

The charter market is so different from the owner one. It is desirable in a larger boat to have 4 cabins in the charter market, and certainly very few owners prefer that layout. And agreed, charter boats get used, and sometimes abused. Major refits often need to occur much sooner than private owner ones, and I would not want to buy a boat to put into the bareboat charter trade in the hope of getting one cheaper when the 5 years expire.

And regarding the charter market in Europe, where it i bigger, Bavaria is probably as a bigger player on that market has Beneteau. Lots of Jeanneau and a bit less Hanse and Dufour but they all have their share.

No question the European market is different than the Americas.

And there you go confusing things. An A8 rating does not mean that the boat is made or can carry 8 across an ocean, it means that it can be sailed offshore with 8. When you make a small passage you are sailing offshore. you can sail offshore day sailing. Offshore means on open sea out of coastal protection.

Really?

Then how do you explain this (source)

• 'A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
  
• ‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.
  
• ‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.
  
• ‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

A according to the regulators does not mean short passages. Note the self sufficency clause. And A8 DOES mean it is certified to carry 8 passengers under the conditions listed. Do you really believe a Bene 38 will do that? I don't even see how it can.

A B rating is what you described. Two different things.

Regarding the number of berths I don't follow you: The Oceanis 38 with a cruising interior on its more logical distribution has one sea berth and two cabins. That makes for 5 persons. Who in his right mind would make long range cruising with more than 5 on that boat? Sure you can cruise with 7 with 3 cabins but due to the lack of storage space on that configuration it would be only for coastal cruising with frequent stops.

Exactly, so what is with the A8 rating? Where is the sea berth you see? And this one has 3 cabins.


Yes, and they do have a 2 cabin version. Where are the sea berths?


Don't you really agree they are pushing their description into an area it really does not belong?

Of course, they do not have grab rails either do they?

It may be OK for a coastal cruiser, but to hang an ocean crossing tag on this boat is just stretching credibility. And to market is as such is just wrong.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by avb3

..Really?

Then how do you explain this (source)

• 'A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.
  
• ‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.
  
• ‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.
  
• ‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

A according to the regulators does not mean short passages. Note the self sufficency clause. And A8 DOES mean it is certified to carry 8 passengers under the conditions listed. Do you really believe a Bene 38 will do that? I don't even see how it can.

A B rating is what you described. Two different things.

Exactly, so what is with the A8 rating? Where is the sea berth you see? And this one has 3 cabins.


Yes, and they do have a 2 cabin version. Where are the sea berths?


Don't you really agree they are pushing their description into an area it really does not belong?

Of course, they do not have grab rails either do they?

It may be OK for a coastal cruiser, but to hang an ocean crossing tag on this boat is just stretching credibility. And to market is as such is just wrong.

I have already tried to explain that you are not understanding the A rating. For understanding why the boat is an A8 you would have to understand how the A rating goes with the legislation of most European countries (not UK) regarding an A boat.

For going offshore you need an offshore licence (that you will only obtain after other several smaller licences) and an offshore boat (A). You need that to sail out of 25NM off the coast. For that you will not need only the A boat but a the licence plus all the needed equipment that includes an Epirp a liferaft and all the basic safety equipment. The 8 persons refers to that, the ones that you could take out of 25NM of the coast, if you have safety equipment to all of them (including places on the liferaft and I can tell you that an offshore liferaft for 8 is BIG).

On the US where almost all finds all right that no regulations are imposed you cannot understand that the max 8 persons regards to occasional sailing out of the 25NM and that the number of persons one takes on an Ocean crossing is a personal decision?

I have a boat that if I am not mistaken is A8 or A10? but I have a 6 person liferaft and only safety equipment for six and that means that I can only take 6 persons on my boat offshore, even if the Max capacity is for more. I will not sail with more then 6 on my sailboat, even if it is a 41ft and that's because I do not race.

But if the boats are used for racing also, even if occasional the A8 on the Oceanis or in mine are necessary, I mean in offsore racing. On some races that go offshore for some days the more effective crew on this size of boats is 8. On that case the number of berth will not be a problem since there will be always a crew of 4 on the cockpit. If the boat is not a A8 they could not sail with a crew of 8.

I hope we are clear on this?

Regarding holding points I don't see a problem: With the bulkhead that separates the front cabin this is not a big interior and there are two big handle bars at the stairs, a big post at the middle of the boat, one handlebar on the stove, another on the bench and the galley have a deep wood hand hold (i don't know how you call that in English). Anyway I don't see how that is a problem. If you find them insufficient you just talk with the dealer that is commissioning the boat for you and he will just put them where you fell the need.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Polux

I have already tried to explain that you are not understanding the A rating. For understanding why the boat is an A8 you would have to understand how the A rating goes with the legislation of most European countries (not UK) regarding an A boat.

I'm not sure what there is not to understand when the wording is very clear:

• 'A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

For going offshore you need an offshore licence (that you will only obtain after other several smaller licences) and an offshore boat (A). You need that to sail out of 25NM off the coast. For that you will not need only the A boat but a the licence plus all the needed equipment that includes an Epirp a liferaft and all the basic safety equipment. The 8 persons refers to that, the ones that you could take out of 25NM of the coast, if you have safety equipment to all of them (including places on the liferaft and I can tell you that an offshore liferaft for 8 is BIG).

This has nothing to do with the BOAT's rating does it. It describes WHO can do those passages, with what additional equipment, not WHAT boat can. The A8 rating applies to the boat, and there is no way I can see THAT boat being used with 8 people on extended passages, which is what the rating refers to. I gave you the source, which is from the regulating authority itself.

On the US where almost all finds all right that no regulations are imposed you cannot understand that the max 8 persons regards to occasional sailing out of the 25NM and that the number of persons one takes on an Ocean crossing is a personal decision?

Yes, that is correct.

I have a boat that if I am not mistaken is A8 or A10? but I have a 6 person liferaft and only safety equipment for six and that means that I can only take 6 persons on my boat offshore, even if the Max capacity is for more. I will not sail with more then 6 on my sailboat, even if it is a 41ft and that's because I do not race.

Again, you are referring to the additional requirements you are obligated to follow.

But if the boats are used for racing also, even if occasional the A8 on the Oceanis or in mine are necessary, I mean in offsore racing. On some races that go offshore for some days the more effective crew on this size of boats is 8. On that case the number of berth will not be a problem since there will be always a crew of 4 on the cockpit. If the boat is not a A8 they could not sail with a crew of 8.

What sea berths are they going to use? Those cabins hardly qualify, do they?

I hope we are clear on this?

Yes, I hope you recognize what the regulators say when they say a BOAT is has an A8 certification, does not mean it should be taken as gospel and used as such. I get it that you need extra equipment also, but that is the requirement for the crew, not the boat.

Regarding holding points I don't see a problem: With the bulkhead that separates the front cabin this is not a big interior and there are two big handle bars at the stairs, a big post at the middle of the boat, one handlebar on the stove, another on the bench and the galley have a deep wood hand hold (i don't know how you call that in English). Anyway I don't see how that is a problem. If you find them insufficient you just talk with the dealer that is commissioning the boat for you and he will just put them where you fell the need.

So the boat does need extra design work to be used off shore, we agree. Stock setup is not significant. I bet it does nicely for coastal sailing in reasonable weather. Which 97% of people will be looking for. I am just saying it really should not pretend to be a bluewater boat, as there are many others much better suited for that purpose. This is not.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by avb3

I'm not sure what there is not to understand when the wording is very clear:

• 'A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

This has nothing to do with the BOAT's rating does it. It describes WHO can do those passages, with what additional equipment, not WHAT boat can. The A8 rating applies to the boat, and there is no way I can see THAT boat being used with 8 people on extended passages, which is what the rating refers to. I gave you the source, which is from the regulating authority itself.


Again, you are referring to the additional requirements you are obligated to follow.

...

Yes, I hope you recognize what the regulators say when they say a BOAT is has an A8 certification, does not mean it should be taken as gospel and used as such. I get it that you need extra equipment also, but that is the requirement for the crew, not the boat.

It seems you are not able to understand and I give up. The RCD and the boat classification in classes are for Europeans and are linked with EC legislation and the requirements the boats and sailors have to have to sail offshore of 25nm where they can find the conditions described on the definition. If the boat was not A8 it could not be raced offshore by a crew of 8 that is the more efficient crew on a boat of that size. Off course, the boat with a smaller crew is quite capable of crossing Oceans on the right season and at the right latitude. All this has nothing to do with US were everybody can sail any boat in any conditions anywhere. I give up

Originally Posted by avb3

So the boat does need extra design work to be used off shore, we agree. Stock setup is not significant. I bet it does nicely for coastal sailing in reasonable weather. Which 97% of people will be looking for. I am just saying it really should not pretend to be a bluewater boat, as there are many others much better suited for that purpose. This is not.

No, it seems you need to put some hand holds to sail that boat offshore. It is alright for me. I sail offshore many miles each year without problems on a boat with an interior similar to that one.

[Jim Cate]

I have to agree with AVB3 here. The regulation is very specific, and it does say that the boat should be capable of extended voyages well offshore, and it should be largely self sufficient. They do say that it is certified for 8 pob. How can you (Pollux) argue that it says something else entirely when applied to Europeans? It seems that you are arguing that the rating is given simply because without it folks couldn't sail offshore, and (here I speculate) this would surely cut into sales.

Another question: How do they arrive at these ratings? Destructive testing of a sample? Derived strengths from calculations? Measurement of storage space volumes? Tables of required tankage per person? As far as we can tell, it is a rating decided upon by gnomes in an inland cave.

Back to the fray...

Jim

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Polux

It seems you are not able to understand and I give up. The RCD and the boat classification in classes are for Europeans and are linked with EC legislation and the requirements the boats and sailors have to have to sail offshore of 25nm where they can find the conditions described on the definition. If the boat was not A8 it could not be raced offshore by a crew of 8 that is the more efficient crew on a boat of that size. Off course, the boat with a smaller crew is quite capable of crossing Oceans on the right season and at the right latitude. All this has nothing to do with US were everybody can sail any boat in any conditions anywhere. I give up

Apparently we are talking about different things. I take the "A" rating at its word, that it is meant for extended passages. Your saying that because it has an "A8" rating it means you can go 25NM off shore while racing with 8 on board.

The two uses are worlds apart. And it may well be fine for your use, I can not for the life of me seeing it being able to do long, extended passages well at all. To me, the passages are important, it appears to you the racing part is. As they say, different strokes for different folks. Which is fine, but I still say that Beneteau is playing up the bluewater aspect, when this boat is anything but.

No, it seems you need to put some hand holds to sail that boat offshore. It is alright for me. I sail offshore many miles each year without problems on a boat with an interior similar to that one.

Too many sharp edges for me, but then, that is me.

[Jim Cate]

As for the value when selling a boat - no way am I implying that you get it all back if you start with a new production boat. My point in this was to counter Neil's and Minaret's extremely high "values" stated for their boats. If you looked at Minaret's numbers at face value (and didn't understand the minutiae) - you could think that he has essentially "made" $1.2 million dollars with his boat (the replacement "value" against the purchase/refit costs). Though I think most people (even him) understand that this is very, very, very unlikely in reality.

I think that you are misinterpreting the term "replacement value". It has nothing to do with what the boat might reasonably sell for. It is an estimate of the cost of reproducing the boat from scratch. And in this light, I think (without specific knowledge) that those replacement values are reasonable, at least ballpark accuracies. So, instead of "making 1.2 million" you could consider it SAVING 1.2 million over the cost of having a brand new Nauticat 52 built for you.

Jim

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I have to agree with AVB3 here. The regulation is very specific, and it does say that the boat should be capable of extended voyages well offshore, and it should be largely self sufficient. They do say that it is certified for 8 pob. How can you (Pollux) argue that it says something else entirely when applied to Europeans? It seems that you are arguing that the rating is given simply because without it folks couldn't sail offshore, and (here I speculate) this would surely cut into sales.

jim

Well, I will try again The RCD and the boat classification regards only EC countries. We cannot go offshore in a boat that is not A rated and without a proper licence. On the US as I said that does not apply and anybody can sail anything to anywhere.

Going offshore in what regards most European legislation is to sail away from 25NM. I have already explained that the Max nº of persons on a sailboat offshore regards only the safety of the boat with that number of persons on the conditions that are defined on the classification. The boat can go out of 25nm or cross oceans and the number of persons it will carry has to do with the skipper decision regarding other factors, not the boat safety. Again, A8 means the boat is safe with 8 persons offshore and the max number of persons is practically only used in what regards charting or crewed racing.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Another question: How do they arrive at these ratings? Destructive testing of a sample? Derived strengths from calculations? Measurement of storage space volumes? Tables of required tankage per person? As far as we can tell, it is a rating decided upon by gnomes in an inland cave.

Again, that has only to do with the number of persons that can safely crew the boat on the A class conditions. The number of persons is calculated taking in account the boat stability, cockpit space, size of the boat and other factors. The RCD and all the rules that go with it were made by a large group on NA and NE and they are annually revised by a technical commission, improving it regarding new inputs.

[El Pinguino]

Is the meaning of the number actually defined in the regs? The actual '8' bit in 'A8' for instance. As a casual observer I would have assumed it refered to the number of bunks. My boat is pre all that rollocks and was built in the days when the first question you would be asked was 'how many does she sleep?'. I blame the French and their loose morals for that by the way.

My boat was sold as having 10 berths ...which it did indeed have ... buggered if I know where they all would have sat if they all got out of bed at the same time.
it was... 2 in the focsle, 3 in the saloon, 2 in the walkthrough and 3 down the back.
What that does mean these days is that I have 3 good sea berths. In port I can stow two down the back , two in the saloon, and .....apart from the fact that is always full of 'stuff'... two up the front

[avb3]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Is the meaning of the number actually defined in the regs? The actual '8' bit in 'A8' for instance. As a casual observer I would have assumed it refered to the number of bunks. My boat is pre all that rollocks and was built in the days when the first question you would be asked was 'how many does she sleep?'. I blame the French and their loose morals for that by the way.

My boat was sold as having 10 berths ...which it did indeed have ... buggered if I know where they all would have sat if they all got out of bed at the same time.
it was... 2 in the focsle, 3 in the saloon, 2 in the walkthrough and 3 down the back.
What that does mean these days is that I have 3 good sea berths. In port I can stow two down the back , two in the saloon, and .....apart from the fact that is always full of 'stuff'... two up the front

Crazy isn't it. Supposedly my boat will sleep 6, but they better be really, really good friends, and smaller than normal.

Realistically, mine will do four, and ideally two. But then, I try to be realistic about my boat's capabilities. And even more so with my own.

[El Pinguino]

Found it at last...on an RYA site
'Crew Limit (Part of the Maximum Load)
Crew limit is the maximum number of persons at 75kg each (except inflatables) recommended by the manufacturer for which the boat is designed to carry when underway.
Factors effecting the choice of crew limit will be, in small boats, the available seating area on thwarts, individual seats etc. and in larger boats the number of berths and available space to enable the boat to be safely navigated in the chosen design category. If for a given Crew Limit ISO 12217 or ISO 6185 does not afford the desired Design Category then a reduction in the Crew Limit may be needed.'
In the plans for the Bene up the page I don't see bunks for 8, I can't see seating for 8 yet she is A8....

[Jim Cate]

Well, I will try again The RCD and the boat classification regards only EC countries. We cannot go offshore in a boat that is not A rated and without a proper licence.

My friend, I have already grasped that in the EU the boat must have the appropriate rating in order to be allowed to clear for offshore travel. No argument from me, and no knowledge of your rules. What I don't yet understand is HOW that boat is judged to meet the requirements which are not spelled out in the reg, except in the most general terms. Who says the boat is capable of "extended voyages" and be "largely self sufficient". How can a boat with limited tankage be granted this rating, to pick on just one of the things most folks think are required for extended passages and self sufficiency?

You have now explained that some NA and NE folks are consulted, and this should result in scantlings and stabilities that are acceptable... that's good. And in fact, as you guys keep pointing out, many such boats have made successful voyages. That does not in itself endorse the "class A" definition. We all can point out horrible boats that have made successful passages.

Again, I'm not concerned with the "8" part, just the extended voyage concept. I've done a few of those, and in boats with no rating or recognition as "blue water" conveyances. Without professional help in deciding on the seaworthyness of my boats, I had to rely upon my own judgement, with fortunate results. My interest and concern here is that a "class A" rating from the government, if not in fact adequately stringent in its criteria, could lead less experienced folks to overestimate the adequacy of some particular vessel with unfortunate results.

Inexperienced folks do get carried away by hype and exaggerated claims. We had a chap here on CF who bought a small cruising cat in Fiji, and explained to us all that he was going to average 10 knots on his trip to Oz. He was quite sure that this was possible because he had read that cats were very fast, and rode over the waves instead of crashing through them. This sort of naivete could well, coupled with an unearned "A" rating lead to disaster. I think this sort of concern is what is driving a lot of the questions about the system.

Cheers,

Jim

[neilpride]

Its Overrated, simple as that, i read the avb3 link regarding the EU regulations, i think i read in SN the history of a Nauticat 38 rated B , lol, since the superstructure door dont comply with the watertight regulations.... ridiculous to the extreme....