The Yard Guys

[four winds]

Hey guys, what are the concerns with a aft facing nav station?

Enjoying the thread very much.

[neilpride]

Another weak argument ,,,
Why on earth im going to spend the same amount or more in cash for a bene 38 when i can get a Passport 40 , a superior boat in all the aspects, i dont understand!!

[Island Time O25]

This is actually similar argument between different types of buyers in real estate. Some just need to have a spanking brand new house or a condo even if it means a marginal or "up and coming" neighborhood, especially when they can't afford a few mil for a brand new condo/house in a great neighborhood. Others will take a beat up old house with good bones but in AAA+ area even if it means an extensive rehab job.

Over the years of course people realize that location is more important in the long run than "newishness" as that gets stale fast but a good location pays for itself many times over. I would say the same is with boats. Some people yearn for new but can only afford a Bavaria or a Hanse. So they will argue here why this is a better choice than an older Passport or HR or some such which after a good refit will cost as much as a new Bavaria but is in a different league regardless. And will always be in a different league.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Another weak argument ,,,
Why on earth im going to spend the same amount or more in cash for a bene 38 when i can get a Passport 40 , a superior boat in all the aspects, i dont understand!!

Because the Bene is uhhh... newer? Uhhhh... faster maybe? (or probably not) Or maybe the nice stylish Ikea interior? Oh hold it, I know, it has a stylish new type arch thingy, and those de regiuer double steering wheel doo ma hickeys. And it has that real blue water type aft bed... you know, the one that is athwartship. That sink should really drain well on both points of heel, don't you think?

Oh, and it has a CE rating of some sort. Ah, A/8. Supposedly that means you can take 8 people across oceans. So, where are we going to store these 8? And supplies. Oh, and water.

Yeah, I can clearly see why someone would want this Bene over a Passport 40. My word, just think how OLD most Passports are.

Yeah, those specs on that Bene shure look real good, don't they now.

[neilpride]

Yeah , i see the same day by day, cheaper is better, new is better, in fact yes and in fact no, take individual cases one by one, i sell Wichard hardware stuff , its expensive, hell is expensive, but its really good and tested in Factory, a regular captive swivel sackle cost around 40 euros ,
the same shackle made in china and sell it by stores like Budget Marine cost 20 u$ , now come the Smart customer arguing why so expensive when in fact they made the same job, a week later the same customer come to the shop claiming we put to much tensión in the jib halyard , sure Mr... shackle pin bend...

With boats happen something similar, and with all the related gear and systems, boats in the past are made by sailors for sailors, today the boats are made by robots with a bunch of calculators in the 2 floor of a nice building making numbers, profit... they are trying to squeeze every single component in a boat to make more profit, hell im sure the dudes in beneteau know to the last milisecond how long take to make the shower pan mould, if the time increase something is going on,,, Hull grid liners are a fine example on how to make thing faster and cheaper, they dont care if you cant inspect the real beef after a collision, they have a Armada of lawyers , and lots of money... so at the end if you want to make a claim they redirect you to a dealer, the dealer is the last link in the chain, dealer claim to the builder ,builder claim to the manufacturer ....

If you have a serious structural defect or you have a serious accident and you want to have answers and maybe a replacement, probably you are screwed and with Slim chances to get something since a single case can ruin a production line or even some bad reputation for certain models, Fountain Pajot come to my mind, if i pay a lot of money for a Brand new boat the last thing i want on earth is to get crapy blisters above the waterline , warranty repair of course ...

The list is endless in all the aspects, gear, products, plumbing, boats, Yard guys ,, etc...

[Island Time O25]

Neilpride, we all know that. But some people just need to have brand new and then will adjust their views to justify it.

When the surveyor was going over my boat he said he hasn't done many of that make since only 80 were made. But (5 years ago) he put a replacement value if new today at about 350K adding that very few boats are manufactured to this level of workmanship and quality. I was floored as I did not expect much of this boat at the price I was getting her nor was I knowledgeable about the brand at the time. Anyway, earlier this year I came across a newspaper article published exactly the year my boat was made about the builder and his shop, etc. Turns out at that time, when Catalinas of same size were going for low $40Ks, mine was at $80K and sail away price about $100K. That put everything in perspective.

[neilpride]

Mine in the last survey the dude put a replacement value around 600.000u$ .. i laugh a lot, WTH,,, really? i guess that day the surveyor have a strong hangover.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Mine in the last survey the dude put a replacement value around 600.000u$ .. i laugh a lot, WTH,,, really? i guess that day the surveyor have a strong hangover.

Neah, they just know that "they don't make them like they used to" anymore. That's a fact. Mine said it outright that to get that level of quality not just of labor and design but the materials, the hardware (as old as it is), the teak trim, etc. will take $350K (in 2009) to replicate. Compare that to a new 36' Bavaria, Hunter, Catalina which can be had for about $170K today, if not less, at the boat show.

Here is another example. From that early 80s article on my make and model - it turns out that the head door was specially imported from Burma at $1,000 a pop, builder's cost. We're talking price over 30 years ago. Today you'd be lucky to get that IKEA-quality door to hold up for 5 years, never mind it lasting 30+ years.

At one of the boat shows as we were checking out actually quite reputable manufacturer's model we saw a piece of laminate the size of a large nail came off the side of one of the locker doors. And that door was made of freaking cardboard. I kid you not. Not even epoxy infused cardboard, just pressed cardboard laminated over by a nice looking thin sheet of plastic. And that boat was being sold at mid $400s. We walked out not believing what we just saw. We were joking venturing guesses that may be that model was like one of those fake phones you find on display, so they don't get stolen.

[TanzerTom]

[QUOTby E=neilpride;1688478]Mine in the last survey the dude put a replacement value around 600.000u$ .. i laugh a lot, WTH,,, really? i guess that day the surveyor have a strong hangover. [/QUOTE]

Thanks to all for very interesting and informative reading. Two thoughts:

Value exists only in the mind. I bought a Tanzer 26 brand new then later a pretty worn San Juan 24. Paid ten times as much for the Tanzer, had much more fun on the San Juan.

Why do so many people seem to think that profit is some evil concept dreamed up by demon capitalists? Do you want to work for an unprofitable company and would you really want a boat from a company that is so poorly managed they can't turn a profit on luxury items? Would YOU work for nothing? Just saying... Profitable companies tend to be around for a while and, generally, provide much better product and customer service.

[TanzerTom]

Originally Posted by avb3

Bene is good at building to their market. And that is the marina condo, coastal cruiser crowd. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but they should not pretend that these boats are anything but. They will do a great job in that environment.

Yeah, I saw that nav desk on the Bavaria, and wondered, who do they think they are kidding?

Agree 100%. But any business that does not produce to market demand is not going to be around long. One person's market is not every person's market. From my experience, by far the largest market for any larger boat, power or sail, is floating condo or coastal/lake cruiser. Seems many think those are second class sailors for some reason. Why? From the info I've gleaned from this site, while a finely built "blue water" craft may salve my ego, for the way my next boat will be sailed (mostly coastal day sails with an occasion trip off coastal Carolinas) I'd likely find that blue water boat a poor choice. I'm looking for a 30-34 foot Pearson, Freedom (single handing most of the time), Hunter 34, or Catalina 30. All very well worth what they can be bought for, especially considering costs of comparable new ones. My experience is that usually new boats are bought by the less experienced with the most disposable income.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by avb3

Bene is good at building to their market. And that is the marina condo, coastal cruiser crowd.

Yes, you will never see Oysters and Swans sitting in marinas and doing daysailing and hosting parties. Every single one of those are in the Southern Ocean in survival conditions testing their mettle.

You will also never see them being bought by rich people who hire others to deliver them to places so they can put them in marinas and live on them like portable condo's throwing parties, etc.

If they weren't all constantly being sailed around the world, then one might think that the major market those boats are built for would be the marina condo, coastal cruiser crowd (albeit, a bit richer cliental than Beneteau's).

Mark

[minaret]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Mine in the last survey the dude put a replacement value around 600.000u$ .. i laugh a lot, WTH,,, really? i guess that day the surveyor have a strong hangover.

Yep, I paid 350k cash for mine and the surveyor put replacement value at 1.4 million BEFORE the refit. Post refit I've got about 550k into it and replacement value is 1.7 million dollars.

[neilpride]

Originally Posted by TanzerTom

[QUOTby E=neilpride;1688478]Mine in the last survey the dude put a replacement value around 600.000u$ .. i laugh a lot, WTH,,, really? i guess that day the surveyor have a strong hangover.

Thanks to all for very interesting and informative reading. Two thoughts:

Value exists only in the mind. I bought a Tanzer 26 brand new then later a pretty worn San Juan 24. Paid ten times as much for the Tanzer, had much more fun on the San Juan.

Why do so many people seem to think that profit is some evil concept dreamed up by demon capitalists? Do you want to work for an unprofitable company and would you really want a boat from a company that is so poorly managed they can't turn a profit on luxury items? Would YOU work for nothing? Just saying... Profitable companies tend to be around for a while and, generally, provide much better product and customer service. [/QUOTE]





Hold on, no, when you make profit by killing the quality factor i dont think is well managed, is in fact poorly managed, the top brands are still doing profit with quality boats, i dont work for nothing but also i dont make profit doing shity work here and there, even i loose some customers who try and try to do a crapy job for litle cash, not me, i dont do this kind of Jobs if is not do it right..

Yes i can work for less money for a company if is doing nice things and if im happy with this kind of work, we have a estándar rate , if you come to me with xxx problem with a tight Budget we can get a deal with the same quality job as if you pay the estándar rates. thats me, others in their own...

Its a fact, most production boats problems come from Factorys shortcuts,
the general trend in certain sizes from 30 to 40 ft is to make the boats lighter and faster, beamy and roomy inside, low maintenance and low cost, and i dont see any problem with that unless they play with quality , lighter fast and strong cost a lot of money...

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by smackdaddy

The Jeanneau SO 40 seems to be a tough little boat:

I don't know about tough...but well balanced!

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by neilpride

Another weak argument ,,,
Why on earth im going to spend the same amount or more in cash for a bene 38 when i can get a Passport 40 , a superior boat in all the aspects, i dont understand!!

Because you want that archy thingy.....