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Old 08-12-2015, 20:38   #16
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

Finally found the pictures but can't figure where the plates go.


You shouldn't have any trouble with the plates one at a time. I did ours on the hard with mast up. Mast is 80 feet and over 1000 pounds. I used grade 5 titanium. (See photos for Nicholson58) We used a halyard to yank them out and to stay the mast. Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery
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Old 08-12-2015, 22:34   #17
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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Originally Posted by SpiritofGlenans View Post
You've got the main halyard, the jib halyard, the spinnaker halyard, the boom topping lift, the spinnaker pole uphaul and possibly another spare halyard to play with, so you can use a selection of these lines to secure the mast on the side on which you wish to work, while still leaving sufficient lines for hauling up your bosuns chair and having a safety line. Additionally you can use your anchor and chain, plus water containers, diesel jerrycans and any other heavy objects to heel the boat over to the relevant side, so that there is actually no load on the shroud being removed, nor the halyards etc which are temporarily replacing it. Alternatively you can take a halyard and attach it to a cleat on the opposite side of the pontoon (probably using an extending piece of rope), to provide both extra leverage and heel at the same time.
Or, you could do what the French do; attach the halyard to the next pontoon and haul away on the winch until the boat is lying on her beam ends, then work on anything you like at the top of the mast without going aloft at all!
Hi, I've got a few tips; for the questions which you posed, & in general, regarding servicing the mast.

Another option besides the above "quote" for staying things, if you Really Have to try this with the mast up. Is to use a stout spinnaker pole (or similar) as a deck spreader. Like on the IMOCA (Open) 60's. And with it well stayed, lead a halyard to it, & from there, to a stout deck fitting (or web of lines attached to such, to form a tang/ad hoc chainplate). You can use this in lieu of a shroud lead over a conventional spreader.
And with the proper (spinnaker) pole, & leads to same, the load on the halyard will be so low as to be of little consequence. And under far less strain than the opposing rigging wire, led over it's (conventional) spreader.

See Brion Toss's The Rigger's Apprentice if you need further pics & guidance. That, plus, given where it sounds like you are on the sailing learning curve, you'll both love said book, & find it invaluable. Especially with Winter coming on

Also, what you're contemplating can be done; & safely at that.
I dropped, & replaced the headstay (including the furler & foil, in situ) on a Ranger 33' (my 1st personal boat), with a 42' deck stepped mast. From the bosun's chair.
Mind you, I had an experience pair of hands/mentor as ground crew, & also had half a dozen years of racing experience, with plenty of time in a bosun's chair under my belt. But your project's not rocket science. However...

You're much the wiser, to fully pull the rig. As, if it's time to replace both the shrouds, & the chainplates. Then I can guarantee you that you'll find some things on the mast which; bear closer inspection than you can give them via a bosun's chair. And that barring heroic efforts (and scads of rigging knowledge) will pretty much only be fixable when the tube is laying on some saw horses.

I mean, the pro's typically pull the mast out of the boat for the jobs you're contemplating, especially on a new (& unknown, as in maint. history) so... why not?

As, IMO, if you're yanking the bits in question. Then you should go ahead & also check all of the tangs & their attachments on the spar. Possibly/probably with dye penetrant. In addition to checking; the spreader bar(s), the spreaders (all components there of) & their attachments, all of your halyard sheaves & mounting hardware, your in mast wiring & lighting systems, plus you insruments/windex, & anything else up there, which likely wont see service for at least another half a decade.

On your new chainplates, there are any number of metals which are better than the stock 316, or 302/304 series stainless. Titanium's one, as already mentioned. There's also Duplex Stainless, & a half a dozen other common ones, which don't suffer from crevice corrosion. Many of which are also easier to machine.
And on machining, if $ is an issue, find a non-marine, machine shop of good repute to make the new chainplates. As their work will likely be a lot cheaper, but still of quality.

Also, now's a good time to think about setting up the masthead to handle an extra halyard or two, whether or not you choose to install such now. As with the rig down, it's a pretty easy thing to have done. Ditto on running a spare set of wires or three, for anything electrical which you might choose to add later. Like spreader lights for example. Although now's as good a time as any, to add such.

I hope this helps, & Good Luck with the job!
Take LOTS of pics of everything on the rig, for later reference, & to document her first big "makeover".
It'll be fun, I'm sure.
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Old 08-12-2015, 23:50   #18
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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Hey everyone.

I recently bought a B27 over the weekend. She is my first boat! Super stoked to get her out on the water and what she can do!

She is in dire need of new chainplates, and probably standing rigging(this part is up in the air).

I know the B27 has a deckstepped mast, however i do not want to haul her out to have the rigging done. I'd prefer to do it while in the water. Does anyone have any resources of this being done?

I know since she isn't a keel-stepped, the rig can't free-stand, however can i use halyards to support the mast while i do 1 at a time?

Also does anyone have good resource on where to get new chainplates and standing rigging? I do live in Seattle, so maybe a local shop?

Thanks!
Chainplates in the water is easy (just use a halyard to hold where the stay or shroud is being removed, one at a time).

Replacing standing rigging with the mast up is a hole different story.

Can be done, but the time and effort it will take to go up and down the mast a bazillion times isn't worth it.

Ask the marina if they have a mast crane you can use for free.

If not, they should charge less than $200 each way to unstep / restep.

Even if you value your own time at only $20 / hour, this will easily save you and a buddy at least 10 man-hours.

For the time and effort it will save, it will be the best money you've ever spent. Reserve your buddies time for something you really need him for. (Like holding the nuts on the chainplate fasteners inside, while you unscrew from the outside.)

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Old 09-12-2015, 10:17   #19
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

Replaced the wires on my mast by myself except for the head stay. Did need help with the headstay/furler to be sure that I didn't kink the furler extrusion. Total time for that help was about a 1/2 hour total for two dockmates just to hold the stay while it was lowered. Did have to make a lot of trips up the mast for the headstay because of poor planning on my part and the first stay replaced. Used an ATN Mast Climber get up and down the mast without help. The Mast Climber was a bit spendy but has more than paid for itself ine ease of climbing. ATN Mastclimber | Single Handed Bosun Chair | Climbing the Mast

It is way easier to work on a mast when it is on the deck but not necessary for just changing wires.

FWIW, was over 65 years old when I changed out the rigging and am still going up the mast at 71.



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Chainplates in the water is easy (just use a halyard to hold where the stay or shroud is being removed, one at a time).

Replacing standing rigging with the mast up is a hole different story.

Can be done, but the time and effort it will take to go up and down the mast a bazillion times isn't worth it.

Ask the marina if they have a mast crane you can use for free.

If not, they should charge less than $200 each way to unstep / restep.

Even if you value your own time at only $20 / hour, this will easily save you and a buddy at least 10 man-hours.

For the time and effort it will save, it will be the best money you've ever spent. Reserve your buddies time for something you really need him for. (Like holding the nuts on the chainplate fasteners inside, while you unscrew from the outside.)

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Old 09-12-2015, 10:26   #20
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

Absolutely can all be done in the water, but as Uncivilized said, it's worth having a look over everything and that's definitely easier done on the ground.

If that's not possible and you have time to burn, well, take your time, use plenty of halyards, and just pull one at a time. It's a bit daunting the first one you do (I recently had to pull the triatic pin of our mizzen whilst 33ft in the air...) but you'll get over that soon enough and you can just crack on.

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Old 09-12-2015, 11:16   #21
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

Guys,

This is a 27' boat with a deck step mast. Taking the mast down is an hour job for two people without a crane. Encouraging someone to go up a mast with known rigging problems after disconnecting a shroud is the height of foolishness.
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Old 09-12-2015, 11:41   #22
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

It is possible to do it standing but doesn't make sense to me. I'm thinking 2 guys and a jury strut should be able to lay the mast on a crutch with no issues. 4 or 5 guys may not even need a strut.
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Old 09-12-2015, 15:30   #23
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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Guys,

This is a 27' boat with a deck step mast. Taking the mast down is an hour job for two people without a crane. Encouraging someone to go up a mast with known rigging problems after disconnecting a shroud is the height of foolishness.
I know I may not be the best one to counter this, and I am still up in the air about dropping the mast. The reason would be to inspect the mast boot, maybe new electrical, and more cables for future use potentially. Ill be going up the mast this weekend take a look at everything and see its condition to determine if dropping should be done.

Based on what i've see, what people here have said, its completely doable with the rig up. Sure it may take longer, but if your tilting the boat to pull all the support off that shroud, and replacing it with a halyard or two, seems VERY doable and completely safe.

Sure it may be easy to drop the mast with 2 guys, and i may do that, but I want to also know that its doable doing it without dropping(even for future reference).

That being said, I am leaning towards the side of yes, we are going to drop the mast to allow us to do a through inspection of it if i see questionable things when i climb it.
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Old 09-12-2015, 15:46   #24
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

All that being said, my marina wont let me drop the mast in my slip(as mast is 31ft and slip is only 28).

They will allow me to drop the mast at the guest docks, which is .75c/ft per day. $70 and 3 days and i could have rigging + chainplates replaced and fully inspect the mast with a fine tooth comb.
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Old 09-12-2015, 21:20   #25
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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All that being said, my marina wont let me drop the mast in my slip(as mast is 31ft and slip is only 28).

They will allow me to drop the mast at the guest docks, which is .75c/ft per day. $70 and 3 days and i could have rigging + chainplates replaced and fully inspect the mast with a fine tooth comb.
As a better option, you can do the chainplate replacement & the rigging swaps as 2 seperate jobs. Replacing the chainplates with the spar in place, before or after the rigging swap.

When you drop the rig, do the work on it on Land, because there will be numerous small parts, which are easy to drop, but that are critical to the rig's integrity. And if you're working on it on Any dock, some of them are guaranteed to wind up in the water.

Also, 3 days to work on the rig may sound like plenty. But trust me, it's not. It's easy to spend that much time just stripping off all of the shrouds & their attendant fittings. Let alone all of the other gear on the mast which bears checking - mentioned in my above post.
Plus, you'll be running to the store & back, to get new parts for some of those things which you decide to replace, but hadn't anticipated doing such to, earlier. And also, you may wind up needing some custom pieces made as well. Thus, spending more time chasing them down too.

That, & as has been mentioned, it only makes sense to do the job right. Including testing a lot of the fittings with dye penetrant. Ditto on the tube. All of which is several days work, by itself.
The reasoning behind checking the fittings & spar in this manner are several;
- It's an older spar, but obviously in need of a Significant servicing.
- You don't know the boat, or it's history (including that of the rig). Which is all the more reason to give it an in depth going over. Meaning all of the components on & attached to it.
And when I say history, that means; what kind of sailing it's seen, up to & including; storms, knockdowns, getting tangled with the rigs on other boats, and basically anything bad which can happen to a rig.
As well as what kind of upkeep has been done to it (if any).
- Rigs commonly are under-maintained, because; maintining them is expensive, in addition to being pretty labor intensive. And given that most of their components aren't easy to check (even from a bosun's chair) then they rarely do. As few people ever inspect their rigs this way, or even go aloft at all. So, bottom line, it means that it can be decades between full rigging inspections. If ever.
- (Finally) Replacing the shrouds, without fully knowing the condition of everything which they're connected to, is: To put it bluntly, a half assed job. And something of a waste of money.
Because a rig is only as strong as the weakest, most worn component, which holds it up.

A $0.20 cotter pin failing can cause you to lose your rig just as easily as an $200 shroud failing. And if the shrouds & chainplates are old enough to need to be replaced, then logic would say, that at a minimum, everything else in the rig is likely of the same age as them.
Thus my strong urgings to take a good look at the other fittings.

It's probable that most riggers would give you advice similar to the above, on most counts. But to ease your mind, call a few, & describe to them what you want done/to do, why, plus the particulars of the boat. And ask for time estimates on such a job. And also, whether or not they'd want the rig down, & stretched out on some saw horses, well away from the water.

My apoligies for sounding brusque. I'm just trying to fully explain what needs doing, & the why behind it, so that after this overhaul, you know that your rig is sound, in all aspects.
The above is what I would want do were it my boat. And is what I've done to the rigs & rigging on my boats. Ditto, when I've serviced dozens of others, over the course of several decades.
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Old 09-12-2015, 23:12   #26
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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I know I may not be the best one to counter this, and I am still up in the air about dropping the mast. The reason would be to inspect the mast boot, maybe new electrical, and more cables for future use potentially. Ill be going up the mast this weekend take a look at everything and see its condition to determine if dropping should be done.

Based on what i've see, what people here have said, its completely doable with the rig up. Sure it may take longer, but if your tilting the boat to pull all the support off that shroud, and replacing it with a halyard or two, seems VERY doable and completely safe.

Sure it may be easy to drop the mast with 2 guys, and i may do that, but I want to also know that its doable doing it without dropping(even for future reference).

That being said, I am leaning towards the side of yes, we are going to drop the mast to allow us to do a through inspection of it if i see questionable things when i climb it.
OK, first off, do not DROP the mast. Lower it sure, unstep it fine, but for God's sake don't drop it!

Additionally, you cannot heel your boat and go up the mast. Your weight on the masthead at a 20 degree heel would likely be sufficient to bring her on down.

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Old 10-12-2015, 01:21   #27
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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Additionally, you cannot heel your boat and go up the mast. Your weight on the masthead at a 20 degree heel would likely be sufficient to bring her on down.

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Why would his going up the mast, when the boat's heeled to 20 degrees cause the mast to fail?

I ask as I see little difference between a man being at the masthead when the boat's heeled over, & the forces exerted on a spar by flying a spinnaker + mainsail in moderate to high winds. Especially as, such a sail combination is the one which is most commonly responsible for causing a wind induced knockdown. And that's an event which the mast & rigging was designed to withstand.

His going to the masthead when the boat's already heeled over some, will definitely increase the angle of heel. Maybe even to the point where he'd get wet; from the extra heeling force causing the masthead to get close to the water. Although I doubt it. As, in general, there's still a Lot of righting moment left in most boats, when they're only heeled to the 20 degree mark.

Also, where's the concept of him going up the rig when the boat is heeled over that far mentioned/being entertained?

Also, just a common sense heads up. No one's talking about him "dropping" the spar. At least not in the sense that it'll literally get dropped, per the dictionary definition of dropping.
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:06   #28
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

1- 180lbs man 35' in the air creates a RM(max) of 6,300ft*lbs of torque.
2- 2600lbs ballast 3' average ballast position creates a RM(max) of 7,800ft*lbs of torque.
3- 30lbs mast 17.5' height RM(max) of 525ft*lbs

Net RM(remaining) 975ft*lbs.

You really want to get on a scale in the morning to find out what you weigh including the bosuns chain and tools, if your combined weight is in excess of 207lbs, the boat becomes top heavy, and may roll over. The only reserve of RM you have left (not much on this boat) is from the hull design, lean her over 20 degrees and that goes out the window as well.
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Old 10-12-2015, 18:41   #29
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

Stumble, Bravo on your post! Thanks for the KISS layout of most of the key involved factors.

In terms of him going up the mast, I think that there's a bit of communications & terminology glitches happening, regarding the various possible outcomes to different courses of action. And whether or not course of action A, or B, is wise or not.
Which is kind of par for the course given that all of these interactions between the various contributing posters, are one-way "conversations".

Something which is inherently fraught with error, even when all parties are on the same page about a subject & topic wise (SIC). As well as (all those involved) having similar levels of knowledge about what's being discussed.
Ergo, it's why you hire a rigger, & get his (hopefully) expert advice, live, on the various options for doing such a job... The pros, cons, probable prices, & likely pitfalls of each route, in order to get to the desired outcome.

I am Very familiar with Rm's, & what goes into figuring them, etc. As well as going aloft in; safe, marginal, & lunatic conditions. On many, many, times more boats than I've had birthdays.
That, & how to build a rig, or repair one. Anywhere from doing a basic tuning on a rig for the prevailing conditions of the day (or next hour of a race - Literally). To starting with; a hull, the Rm curve (or our on site estimate there of), & choosing a tube, plus the other components for the boat's rig. And building it to completion.

Stumble,
Your basic math on this is well laid out, & pretty reasonable, for arriving at a safe minimum figure for the Rm on that boat. Thanks for adding that to this thread!!!

Also, for those new to Rm's, said math doesn't (& really, can't) take into account the other half a dozen+ factors which affect the real world Rm.
*** Not that such info is easy to come by, barring either; a lot of working on/with boats, or having done plenty of boat design & NA type work. ***
And for Stumble to type that much info (on figuring out true Rm's) into a post on here, would likely take up an unreasonable amount of time.
In addition to said tech info perhaps being over a lot of people's heads.

That said, from the way that ramblinrod phrased things, it made it sound as if the OP's going up the mast would cause it to structurally collapse (or so I read it - possibly in error). Which, I would put money on that not being the case.
But I wouldn't wager that the OP's going up the mast wouldn't get him wet (from the boat heeling over that far due to him being up there). As I mentioned earlier, in another post.

And yeah, even if it didn't get him wet, it would be a bit hairy trying to working up there, given the borderline stability of a boat that size with a man aloft.

Which takes us back to it being the best course of action to just pull the rig out of the boat & work on it that way. A thing which I've explained the wisdom behind ad infinitum.

And these last couple of posts add a LOT of wisdom (& explanation) to the "why" behind the OP needing to pull the rig in order to do the work which he has in mind.

So thanks to all for adding these pieces!


PS: My apoliges if I've had my head up my backside, & or have commited any other "sins" via my comments in this thread.
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Old 10-12-2015, 18:57   #30
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Re: Replacing standing rigging/chainplates on B27 while in the water

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In terms of him going up the mast, I think that there's a bit of communications & terminology glitches happening, regarding what might or might not happen. And if such a course of action is wise or not.
Which is kind of par for the course given that all of these interactions that us various members are having, are one-way "conversations".

Something which is inherently fraught with error, even when all parties are on the same page subject & topic wise. As well as having similar levels of knowledge about what's being discussed.
Ergo, it's why you hire a rigger, & get his (hopefully) expert advice on the various options for doing a job... Pros, cons, & probable prices & pitfalls of each route to get to the desired outcome.

I am Very familiar with Rm's, & what goes into figuring them, etc. As well as going aloft in; safe, marginal, & lunatic conditions. On many many times more boats than I've had birthdays.
That, & how to build a rig, or repair one. Anywhere from doing a basic tuning on a rig for the prevailing conditions of the day (or next hour of a race - Literally). To starting with; a hull, the Rm curve (or our on site estimate there of), & choosing a tube, plus the other components for the boat's rig, & building it to completion.

Stumble,
Your basic math on this is well laid out, & semi-reasonable for arriving at a "safe" minimum figure for the Rm on that boat. Thanks for adding that to this thread.
Also, for those new to Rm's, said math doesn't (& really, can't) take into account the other half a dozen+ factors which affect the real world Rm.
*** Not that such info is easy to come by, barring either; a lot of working on/with boats, or having done plenty of boat design & NA type work. ***
And for you (Stumble) to type that much info (on figuring out true Rm's) into a post on here, would likely take up an unreasonable amount of your time. In addition to said tech info likely being over a lot of people's heads.

That said, from the way that ramblinrod phrased things, it made it sound as if the OP's going up the mast would cause it to structurally collapse (or so I read it - possibly in error). Which, I would put money on that not being the case.
But I wouldn't wager that the OP's going up the mast wouldn't get him wet (from the boat heeling over that far due to him being up there).

And yeah, even if it didn't get him wet, it would be a bit hairy trying to working up there, given the borderline stability of a boat that size with a man aloft.

Which takes us back to it being the best course of action to just pull the rig out of the boat & work on it that way. A thing which I've explained the wisdom behind ad infinitum.

And these last couple of posts add a LOT of wisdom (& explanation) to the "why" behind the OP needing to pull the rig in order to do the work which he has in mind.

So thanks to all for adding these pieces!


PS: My apoliges if I've had my head up my backside, & or have commited any other "sins" via my comments in this thread.
Great post Uncivilized. I greatly appreciate not just your knowledge, but everyones knowledge who have contributed to this. I think having posts similar to this, with the amount of information we have here, will greatly help others in the future.

All that being said, I'm on the market for a decent rigger to give me a survey and help me figure out what my options are and what needs to be done. Funds are tight, so spending $400 on a survey + the cost of a new rig is a bit hard to come to terms with(including the cost of haulout if needed plus cost of sitting on the hard for the period of time).

I'll gladly do chainplates myself, and if the rig is in "OK" condition, I'll hold out, otherwise ill have to figure out how to come up with the cost of affording the new rig, however the longer i can put it off, the easier it will be for me to be in a financial position to do it.
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