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Old 09-04-2016, 10:34   #31
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
..... and people wonder why I always recommend an encapsulated keel to newbies looking for a boat.... Just one more thing to not worry about :>)
My dad had an Ericson 32 with an encapsulated keel. Ran her aground in the Hook race in Wisconsin. Didn't think much of it till the annual haul out and found a small trickle of BBs leaking out from a tiny hole. Been doing that for 2 months. I'll bet there is a circle of lead BBs around mooring can number 18 at Jackson Park Harbor in Chicago to this day!
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:39   #32
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
..... and people wonder why I always recommend an encapsulated keel to newbies looking for a boat.... Just one more thing to not worry about :>)




Honestly, I really don't like repairing those any better. If anything, the damage is usually worse on an encapsulted keel. A well built bolt on lead keel can absorb an insane amount of energy and only take a big dent in the lead. Much more forgiving. Any contact in an encapsulted keel transfers all the energy into the keel stub/structure, whatever that may be, with no big soft lump of lead to absorb impact. Then you not only have to repair the fiberglass damage to the keel itself, but also the damage to the keel stub/grid/liner, as the case may be, just like we are here.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:41   #33
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
My dad had an Ericson 32 with an encapsulated keel. Ran her aground in the Hook race in Wisconsin. Didn't think much of it till the annual haul out and found a small trickle of BBs leaking out from a tiny hole. Been doing that for 2 months. I'll bet there is a circle of lead BBs around mooring can number 18 at Jackson Park Harbor in Chicago to this day!

Yes, lead keels are also not subject to the many problems I've seen with water intrusion into whatever strange material they may have used for ballast, of which I've also seen many, from bricks to Pachinko balls. Encapsulated keels with water intrusion can freeze and split if left on the hard over the winter, they can have iron ballast that rusts, swells, and splits the keel on water intrusion, etc etc etc.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:46   #34
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Re: Keel sump repair

Here you have a laminate sample from cutting the new keel bolt holes.

Also measurements recorded for original hull thickness vs. new hull thickness. You can see she grew 1mm, ie we put on 1mm more material than we removed.
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Old 09-04-2016, 10:49   #35
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Re: Keel sump repair

New bolt holes!
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:02   #36
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Yes, lead keels are also not subject to the many problems I've seen with water intrusion into whatever strange material they may have used for ballast, of which I've also seen many, from bricks to Pachinko balls. Encapsulated keels with water intrusion can freeze and split if left on the hard over the winter, they can have iron ballast that rusts, swells, and splits the keel on water intrusion, etc etc etc.
I love that pachinko ball story. Good Lord I needed that laugh.
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:13   #37
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Re: Keel sump repair

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I love that pachinko ball story. Good Lord I needed that laugh.


Gonna hang out with my girls for awhile and then go make backing blocks. Have fun!
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:16   #38
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Re: Keel sump repair

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Honestly, I really don't like repairing those any better. If anything, the damage is usually worse on an encapsulted keel. A well built bolt on lead keel can absorb an insane amount of energy and only take a big dent in the lead. Much more forgiving. Any contact in an encapsulted keel transfers all the energy into the keel stub/structure, whatever that may be, with no big soft lump of lead to absorb impact. Then you not only have to repair the fiberglass damage to the keel itself, but also the damage to the keel stub/grid/liner, as the case may be, just like we are here.
First you have to have a well built boat. Depends on the builder either way. I hit twice VERY hard ( 5 knots to dead stop) in my Passport 47. Scrape is all both times.
I managed a Catalina 42 in charter that hit a rock at about the same speed. (bolt on keel) $20k in damage. Engine bed broke loose, Galley cabs broke loose, smile in the hull fore and aft of the keel.
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Old 09-04-2016, 11:17   #39
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
First you have to have a well built boat. Depends on the builder either way. I hit twice VERY hard ( 5 knots to dead stop) in my Passport 47. Scrape is all both times.
I managed a Catalina 42 in charter that hit a rock at about the same speed. (bolt on keel) $20k in damage. Engine bed broke loose, Galley cabs broke loose, smile in the hull fore and aft of the keel.

Now that's a statement I'd agree with.
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Old 10-04-2016, 09:11   #40
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Re: Keel sump repair

I saw this first on the W owners group forum, and thought ... Holy smoke this is going to be a ton of work... Had you seen Edwin's Leapfrog repairs and documentation???

Lemme say that you are the luckiest man ever for having the guru of all gurus right there in your backyard... Smartest thing you ever did was having minaret on the job...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
Attachment 122323
Getting tagged by the youngest crew member!
Easily the most important repair step of them all...
Attachment 122324
Making the cocoon inside!
Attachment 122325
I said it looked like a giant spider was down there. Minaret said, "Cocoon man! A beautiful butterfly of laminate will emerge. No damn spiders!!" He might be a touch scared of spiders. 😎
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Wait'll the first time YOU put on your fullface that's been sitting under the boat overnight and there's a big hairy one in there with ya!
That explains it !!!
Bet you did a little "shimmy wiggle" dance too...


Quote:
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Thought I'd add some of my pictures to minaret's.
Attachment 122363
The second or third trip to Fisheries Supply!
Can you imagine not having minaret's discount??? YeeeOwch!

Quote:
Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Here you have a laminate sample from cutting the new keel bolt holes.

Also measurements recorded for original hull thickness vs. new hull thickness. You can see she grew 1mm, ie we put on 1mm more material than we removed.
Oh man... Now Hooked has to remark all his charts with the extra 1mm draft restriction !!!
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Old 10-04-2016, 10:49   #41
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Re: Keel sump repair

We grounded hard a couple years ago in the North Channel. The keel bounced over a rock and landed on gravel shoal. Encapsulated keel with 15,000 # cast lead ballast set in neat resin in the keel box & then glassed over at the top in the hull. No Pachinco balls. No water shipped but haul revealed a large divot missing & lead exposed. We took a year off to dry out the inside of the keel box and repair the layups. Working upside down, 3 layers at a time, it took about 40 layers of multi-axial stich mat & epoxy. Centerboard trunk made it more complicated. I found that plastic thin film applied on each layup allowed handling with a roller, squeegee or hand to move out air bubbles and to keep the resin from flowing out during cure. This also gives a pretty high density compaction.

It was pretty clear from my grinding that this was not the first roundup for this keel - no surprise for a 1984 boat. I went past the old repairs to start mine.

Minaret - Nice project. Thanks for sharing. Next time you need a blade to get between the keel & hull find a machine shop & get a broken band saw blade. These will be 1-1/2 inches wide or so and stiff enough to easily work the joint. If you need to heat it, it will hold more heat. I have made these up to 48 inches long with gob of tap handle. Put a handle on each end and use it as a two man saw.
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:29   #42
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Re: Keel sump repair

Thanks for sharing the story and pictures. The interesting part to me is the good condition of the keel bolts, because they probably have been wet for an extended period of time.
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Old 10-04-2016, 11:55   #43
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Re: Keel sump repair

Really nice work Mina!! subscribed
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:21   #44
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Re: Keel sump repair

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Originally Posted by Nicholson58 View Post
Minaret - Nice project. Thanks for sharing. Next time you need a blade to get between the keel & hull find a machine shop & get a broken band saw blade. These will be 1-1/2 inches wide or so and stiff enough to easily work the joint. If you need to heat it, it will hold more heat. I have made these up to 48 inches long with gob of tap handle. Put a handle on each end and use it as a two man saw.
You gotta admit that the mallet pull handle is brilliant.... Your frustration relief tool (very important) is right there, deployed and ready to repeatedly bang on that hunk 'o lead should something go awry...
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Old 11-04-2016, 06:47   #45
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Re: Keel sump repair

minaret and Hooked...

I second the thanks for sharing and the extremely well documented repair... Methodical craftsmanship at it's finest... I should be shot misquoting another W, but the name of the boat I mentioned earlier is Frog's Leap, not Leapfrog !
FROG'S LEAP


I have to say it's a smidge disconcerting to see a similar failure, but I've been through mine with a fine tooth comb... My sump and stringers look very similar, but only the fwd 4 are as shown... the others are under the engine and 2' down... Also, while heavier... my moment arm is a fraction of these with a 9' long stub and only a 2' depth moment...

Hope y'all had a very nice weekend off from a HUGE job!
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