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Maine Sail · 27-11-2012, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In every case where I bought an old boat, ( now upto 6 ) I've had all the seacocks surveyed, in several cases some where replaced. I mean big deal. There are other more important things that I'd like to see changed but can't , like good hand holds , proper chart tables , poor engine instrumentation , sharp edges, lack of sea berths etc. I had all the forward doors fall off their hinges in a big seaway in a Gibsea recently the hull flexed so much the doors wouldn't go back.

Dave

None of those other things matter if the boat sinks from under you. I replaced a number of seacocks on an European boat that sailed here on her own from Portugal. The boat was then sold. It started out as just replacing some hoses for the new owner but when the hose barbs began to crumble, not visible to the owner or surveyor, the decision was made. These seacocks do fail. "Good enough" is not right for something as important as a 1.5" + hole in your boat.. If you are happy with that then that's fine, but many are not....

goboatingnow · 27-11-2012, 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

None of those other things matter if the boat sinks from under you. I replaced a number of seacocks on an European boat that sailed here on her own from Portugal. The boat was then sold. It started out as just replacing some hoses for the new owner but when the hose barbs began to crumble, not visible to the owner or surveyor, the decision was made. These seacocks do fail. "Good enough" is not right for something as important as a 1.5" + hole in your boat.. If you are happy with that then that's fine, but many are not....

You miss the point. All production boats are " good enough " they meet the majority of users expectation and do the job they are designed to do. Materials on modern boats are a mess stainless underwater, stainless keel bolts , yuck etc etc. brass seacocks are just one of those " good enough" decisions that all those builders make.

This isn't an excuse, it a fact of how these boats are designed and the decisions made in that design. If the seacocks were failing all over the place , beneteau ( and others) would either change them or go bust. I see neither happening.

For example American AC wiring practices on US boats are commented as unsafe vis a vie EU standards , yet we know that US boats don't regularly electrocute their owners. ( why because its good enough). Good enough is a standard used all through a cost engineered design. What cost does a major production manufacturer have to make say a popular 38 footer. It's a very competitive marketplace, labour costs are increasing as are the social costs of labour. Environmental legislation increases cost and more and more standard compliance is needed. Simply price increases arnt an option , we nearly lost several " high" quality. Swedish companies in the last couple of years , equally look at how many high quality US builders have gone under.

The average punter isn't prepared to pay for this stuff. This is why you get an " average" level of engineering, a boat that is " good enough ".

Dave

S/V Alchemy · 27-11-2012, 13:10

I feel better about my custom boat. The original owner and builder didn't go cheap on this score, perhaps because steel boat owners have a more pressing interest in things galvanic...I know I do.

I do find huge and what I consider fundamental flaws on many current production boats, like lack of positive lockdowns for cabin sole hatches, lack of handholds in logical places, lack of backing plates for deck gear subject to shear...the list goes on.

I do, however, like to peer around in new boats for clever stowage and electronics ideas. I just am not sure I'd like to go to sea in them.

This is a good discussion. Thanks.

**noelex 77** · 27-11-2012, 13:14

There is a a tendency for some yachts to exhibit good quality fittings where they will be noticed and poor quality equipment where it will not be inspected,
Underwater fittings are vital, but are not readily visible.

An educated consumer would ensure the basics are adequate. I hope through these discussions CF members become educated consumers.

Manufacturers will produce what sells, In the end, we as consumers, make the choices. I don't believe an informed consumer would not choose a brass seacock.

**noelex 77** · 27-11-2012, 13:21

Here is another article that provides some background reading
http://www.paulstevenssurveys.com/upload/Seacocks.pdf

goboatingnow · 27-11-2012, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by noelex 77

There is a a tendency for some yachts to exhibit good quality fittings where they will be noticed and poor quality equipment where it will not be inspected,
Underwater fittings are vital, but are not readily visible.

An educated consumer would ensure the basics are adequate. I hope through these discussions CF members become educated consumers.

Manufacturers will produce what sells, In the end, we as consumers, make the choices. I don't believe an informed consumer would choose a brass seacock.

So you are saying that if a manufacturer said. dear boat show buyer these seacocks seem to last say 10-12 years and then you might have to replace them, you think they'll walk away !!!

The basics are " adaquate" that all they are.

Dave

goboatingnow · 27-11-2012, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

I feel better about my custom boat. The original owner and builder didn't go cheap on this score, perhaps because steel boat owners have a more pressing interest in things galvanic...I know I do.

I do find huge and what I consider fundamental flaws on many current production boats, like lack of positive lockdowns for cabin sole hatches, lack of handholds in logical places, lack of backing plates for deck gear subject to shear...the list goes on.

I do, however, like to peer around in new boats for clever stowage and electronics ideas. I just am not sure I'd like to go to sea in them.

This is a good discussion. Thanks.

Sure we can all afford custom boats. And I agree there are huge flaws.

However ...

The conclusion " I'm just not sure I'd like to go to sea in them" is not justified. They are by design " good enough"

Dave

**David M** · 27-11-2012, 13:29

On a fiberglass hull for metal thru-hulls, I would not use anything but silicon bronze thru-hull fittings, regardless of what others might be saying. The money saved by going cheap is simply not worth the risk for something that has the potential of sinking your boat.

Maine Sail · 27-11-2012, 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

On a fiberglass hull for metal thru-hulls, I would not use anything but silicon bronze thru-hull fittings, regardless of what others might be saying. The money saved by going cheap is simply not worth the risk for something that has the potential of sinking your boat.

Who makes them in silicon bronze?

**David M** · 27-11-2012, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Who makes them in silicon bronze?

I don't remember off hand. But I have purchased them in the past. I could research who manufactures them or you could or any member could generously do so.

Maine Sail · 27-11-2012, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

I don't remember off hand. But I have purchased them in the past. I could research who manufactures them or you could or any member could generously do so.

Most all of the seacocks and skin fittings in the US have been made from 85-5-5-5 bronze for years and years and years. I have some going back 80 years still operable and many of my Cape Dory customers with Spartan 85-5-5-5 tapered cone seacocks approaching 40 years...

85-5-5-5 bronze is also considered/called "bearing bronze", "leaded red brass", "naval bronze" or "leaded gun metal" among others..

I know Buck Algonquin, Groco, Apolo/Conbraco and Perko use 85-5-5-5 bronze and they are the main suppliers to the US market. Silicon bronze is suitable I just don't know anyone offering it these days.

This is what Apollo/Conbraco/Watts describe it as:

"Marine Full Flow Ball Valves are UL Marine approved and manufactured from 85-5-5-5 naval bronze"