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Old 04-12-2015, 15:38   #781
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by solarbri View Post
Pardon me, but why are you ever REQUIRED to back into a slip?
Maybe he chose to do that because he wanted to?
And having help on each stern watching the approach at that point would just be common sense, no? It is a 7 figure $ boat after all. Why play bumper boats if you can easily avoid it. And I imagine that any 57' cat coming into dock is almost never single handed anyway.
No boat does everything perfectly. I'd take an Atlantic 57 over just about any other live aboard cat made!
I don't understand the attitude you are taking with me, but to answer your question, the finger piers were short and pulling in bow first would have required the people on board to launch their selves over the lifelines from a very high bow onto floating docks 6-7' below them. Pulling stern in allowed them to gracefully step from their transoms right level with the dock.

So I guess you are correct, he chose to do that because he wanted to.

No, I don't think needing people on each stern is common sense. On most other boats, this is no problem at all. It is only a problem with forward cockpit boats, which was why I expressed that it was an issue that had never occurred to me with this design until I saw someone struggling with it.

Yes, I too would take an A57 any day. All boats are a compromise. We feel fortunate to not only have full visibility of both bows and stern on ours, but also full visibility of both hull sides. Sitting at our helm (even with sails up), we can see the entire boat.

But I would still take an A57 or Catana 471 with all of their flaws…

Mark
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Old 04-12-2015, 15:49   #782
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

On the Sig 45 you can look over the cabin:



And really remarkable, it seems that is going to be possible also on the Sig 60:

and even on the Sig 80. I would say that is remarkable to resist to give to the interior a big standing height (all the way) to provide a good feeling and visibility while sailing:


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Old 04-12-2015, 15:57   #783
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Having been on these boats many times, I can assure you that in the daylight with sun beaming down, those windows are as opaque as if they had curtains on them and lining up those doors provides a gun slit view at best.
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well, around here we have a saying: "there is not a beautiful thing without a defect"
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Old 04-12-2015, 16:06   #784
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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I don't understand the attitude you are taking with me...
No "attitude" intended. Sorry if the "pardon me", or whatever else, made you feel that way.
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Old 04-12-2015, 16:18   #785
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
...I prefer condom cat's over condo cat's. All the fun, with no responsibility.
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Old 04-12-2015, 17:18   #786
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

The various helm positions are dictated by the required sail plan (or vice versa)
The most efficient sail plan is with the lowest boom (and windage) with the boom just above a continuous coach roof (outremer, nautitec, catana etc) which usually require outboard or bulkhead mounted helms.
The next most efficient is a split coach roof (st Francis, Antares, lagoon 380,420, Maine cat etc)
Next (or equal to the above) would be the Bimini bubble type with continuous coach roof where the boom needs to be a bit higher to clear the Bimini (lagoon 39, 400, 450ST, helia etc)
Followed by bridgedeck helms
I'm pretty happy with the L400 helm. Obviously it's a compromise between comfort and performance, as are all things sailing related. The 380 was also ok but harder to stay dry in a squall and no shade and no obvious upwind difference in performance
The jib will occasionally block a sector, but I've never been on any yacht where it doesn't. Checking the blind spot every 15 minutes just requires ducking to look through the saloon windows or walking to starboard for a horizon scan. Downwind with parasailor is 360 degree clear as the bottom of the parasailor is well above the Bimini.
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Old 04-12-2015, 17:38   #787
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

As far as upwind performance of the various types, here's a couple of upwind tracks, into 1-2kn current, 15-20kn TWS. Yellow is a 2010 outremer 45' factory extended to 48', red a 2014 lagoon 400. The outremer averaged .5kn more SOG on this particular day.
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Old 04-12-2015, 18:17   #788
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
On the Sig 45 you can look over the cabin:



And really remarkable, it seems that is going to be possible also on the Sig 60:

and even on the Sig 80. I would say that is remarkable to resist to give to the interior a big standing height (all the way) to provide a good feeling and visibility while sailing:



And that would be because it is an open bridgedeck catamaran.


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Old 04-12-2015, 18:33   #789
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
As far as upwind performance of the various types, here's a couple of upwind tracks, into 1-2kn current, 15-20kn TWS. Yellow is a 2010 outremer 45' factory extended to 48', red a 2014 lagoon 400. The outremer averaged .5kn more SOG on this particular day.
Attachment 114323
5º, maybe 7º better, not very impressive, for the Outremer. I thought it would be more around 10º.

How do you have managed to have the two boats sailing at the same time? Do you have made a test sail with the Outremer to see the difference in pointing ability and upwind performance?

Anyway the SOG may be only 0.5k (that upwind is considerable) but the VMG would be considerably more than that due to the Outremer better pointing ability.
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Old 04-12-2015, 19:05   #790
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

The outremer track is tracked on AIS and saved in opencpn as a track. I have opencpn set to save tracks for several hours. It's interesting to compare real life tracks and speeds of various boats we are sailing near. Also for passages between reefs or charter skippers special anchorages occasionally if I don't know the boat type I'll look it up on marinetraffic for a picture.
Today we sailed from st Vincent to st Lucia with a variety of conditions, from 35kn TWS and crappy short period swell on the nose, to 10kn TWS and flat water in the lee of st Lucia. The sail was around 8hrs for 50nm and the wind ranged from the nose to the beam. We left at the same time as this yacht and arrived at the same time. I had a nap mid way and woke to find Jen in full race mode at the helm, even trimming the sails as she could see the yacht a half mile abeam.
http://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/...ASS%20ROSE%20X
I'm not sure what it is or what it's Polars are or if it's a cruiser/racer or whatever. It's around the same length as us (1m longer) and performed pretty much the same on all points of sail, including hard on the wind. We both motored for 30 mins when the wind dropped to 5kn.
Back on topic...Yesterday we sailed from bequia to st Vincent in nice sailing conditions and a cat abeam of us motorsailed with fully reefed main and no jib the whole way. They beat us by a few minutes which was surprising considering we were averaging 7.5kn with one reef in the main. I guess they had both engines flatchat different strokes for different folks I guess
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Old 04-12-2015, 20:12   #791
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Thanks Monte for trying to get this thread back on topic - not that it will stay there! While I and others have attempted to list various reasons for the OP's observation, this thread has been hijacked by cat haters who insist - against all reason - that the sole reason is that they don't sail to windward. Hope you are enjoying SVG mate, in spite of having to sail and anchor in an inherently bad boat!

Cheers!

Brad
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Old 05-12-2015, 00:08   #792
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
As far as upwind performance of the various types, here's a couple of upwind tracks, into 1-2kn current, 15-20kn TWS. Yellow is a 2010 outremer 45' factory extended to 48', red a 2014 lagoon 400. The outremer averaged .5kn more SOG on this particular day.
Attachment 114323
Something few people seem to understand - a fast boat, because of it's speed can have what looks like a worse track when sailing to windward.

For instance - a boat sailing at 5 knots, at 40' apparent in 10 knots true wind, will tack through 117 degrees.

If it sailed at 8 knots, at 35 apparent in the same 10 knots, it would tack through 125 degrees.

It's VMG is over a knot faster though.

By some people's reckoning, the AC 72 tacked through an unimpressive 110 degrees. But they achieved an astonishing VMG of around 18 knots in around 20 knots wind. To do this they had to be sailing at around 150% of TWS and at around 20' apparent.

Yep, cat's can't sail to windward...
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Old 05-12-2015, 00:47   #793
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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He needs the sails alright. spoke to him today and he's already sick of motoring. Should have them next week.
Would be great to see some photos of Bob's new vessel.

I imagine it will not be slow.
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Old 05-12-2015, 00:48   #794
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

Geez 44C - you letting logic interfere with things again Should be ashamed of yourself.
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Old 05-12-2015, 01:23   #795
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Re: Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
The outremer track is tracked on AIS and saved in opencpn as a track. I have opencpn set to save tracks for several hours. It's interesting to compare real life tracks and speeds of various boats we are sailing near. Also for passages between reefs or charter skippers special anchorages occasionally if I don't know the boat type I'll look it up on marinetraffic for a picture.
Today we sailed from st Vincent to st Lucia with a variety of conditions, from 35kn TWS and crappy short period swell on the nose, to 10kn TWS and flat water in the lee of st Lucia. The sail was around 8hrs for 50nm and the wind ranged from the nose to the beam. We left at the same time as this yacht and arrived at the same time. I had a nap mid way and woke to find Jen in full race mode at the helm, even trimming the sails as she could see the yacht a half mile abeam.
COMPASS ROSE X - Sailing Vessel: current position and details | MMSI 316011531, Callsign CFN4850 | Registered in Canada | AIS Marine Traffic
I'm not sure what it is or what it's Polars are or if it's a cruiser/racer or whatever. It's around the same length as us (1m longer) and performed pretty much the same on all points of sail, including hard on the wind. We both motored for 30 mins when the wind dropped to 5kn.
For the record--

COMPASS ROSE X 1999 Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2. 46' 6" LOA, Beam 14' 8" Draft 5' 3" Three cabins each with it's own head.
Furling Main & Genoa & Cruising Spinnaker. Chartplotter, Radar, Sirius Satellite Weather, AIS. Wind, Speed & Depth & Auto pilot. Solar Panels, Fridge & Freezer, Dinghy with 15 hp Outboard & Davits from Adventure Sailing Plus Ltd.

and I think you both had a great time.
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