Why Do Catamarans Motor Nearly 100%

[44'cruisingcat]

Must have been tide with you, instruments must be wrong, there are mono cruiser racers that are at least 1/1,000,000 knot faster... blah blah..

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by StuM

Yep cats can't sail to windward. Especially a condomaran like the Belize.

Yesterday I had to really pinch up to lay Lolorua Passage on the way back from the RPYC picnic at Fisherman's Island.

Almost full water and fuel, all our liveaboard junk and 16 people on board. Half of them up on the tramp weighing down the bow:

The Leopard 45 we test sailed a few years ago couldn't sail anywhere near that close to windward. The best it could do was a close reach loosing ground sideways all the while. Why do you suppose the Leopard performance was so poor compared to your Belize? Had it not been, we'd probably be living on one six months per year, since my wife really liked the layout and living quarters. The flimsy deck hardware also turned me off.

Maybe with the engine helping out the Leopard could have managed 30 degrees to windward.

Who knows?

[StuM]

Maybe the new main that I've just put on.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The Leopard 45 we test sailed a few years ago couldn't sail anywhere near that close to windward. The best it could do was a close reach loosing ground sideways all the while. Why do you suppose the Leopard performance was so poor compared to your Belize?

Laws of Physics, weight, hull shape, windage, sail inventory etc etc. Lagoon has beaten the laws of physics they tell us, but everyone else has to comply.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The Leopard 45 we test sailed a few years ago couldn't sail anywhere near that close to windward. The best it could do was a close reach loosing ground sideways all the while. Why do you suppose the Leopard performance was so poor compared to your Belize? Had it not been, we'd probably be living on one six months per year, since my wife really liked the layout and living quarters. The flimsy deck hardware also turned me off.

Maybe with the engine helping out the Leopard could have managed 30 degrees to windward.

Who knows?

windward sail in cat - it is more involved than on mono, i reckon. Mono guy trying will no doubt be disappointed.

I sometimes outrun monos to windward, more often in stronger condition, but sometimes just nothing works, and have no choice but to have beer or two and convince myself that lagoon is undercanvassed. Getting there bit by bit. Jib sag is important i realised.

however, my new carbon gennaker is a blast Going down to 55 deg app. And adding around 1.5 - 2.5 kn. At least this sunday.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

Laws of Physics, weight, hull shape, windage, sail inventory etc etc. Lagoon has beaten the laws of physics they tell us, but everyone else has to comply.

lagoon picked low hanging fruit.

they make most spacius cats, in cheapest possible way. Downside is weight. So, cats are also designed to carry weight.

3.5 T extra weight in L 400 will not kill any speed as it is nothing to kill. But will make racy/fast cruise cats fall behind Lagoon.

As people use boat for living, condomaran fits well with the agenda. No more to it, end this thread.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

...end this thread.

Now there's an idea!

We could all migrate over to this one...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ls-148957.html

[Bulawayo]

Hi Monte - you are on a cat so clearly you are 100% wrong and your experiences of actual world does not fit with some peoples concepts which also establishes that you are incorrect. The proof is in other peoples research.
However, several years ago we took part in the upwind Dar-es-Salaam to Tanga yacht race with variable winds; 10-40knots.
We were one of only two cats taking part. The other cat turned back when the wind reached over 30 knots as they were inexperienced. There were several decent mono hulled boats also competing, including a semi flush decked >42ft Oyster.
We finished second despite being a cruising loaded cat. Frankly, I cant be ar*ed with trying to establish how we achieved this with various diagrams. I know my boat and I believe I know how to to sail her - and despite the howls of protest that cats cannot go to windward the evidence was very apparent - we arrived second. We were beaten by a 22ft skiff with a lifting keel that knew their local waters very well and which could lift their keel to cut through the reefs. We dare not presume what they knew.
This does not fit with some peoples concepts of cats and if I am honest it did not fit with my own views of many years ago. Then I went on a friends cat and sailed many miles with him and I was converted.
There are many people out there that sit in their arm chairs and write about their knowledge - mostly gleaned from the internet and magazines. Some may have even sailed a boat or perhaps even have charted for more than a few days. This experience turns them into experts on all things nautical. One day they might actually get out there and actually sail across a sea. If someones real world experiences do not fit with their expert knowledge then they shall not be slow to comment. There is also a massive difference in experience with sailing a lightly loaded boat for a day or two to those that cruise oceans for months at a time.
A few months ago we beat up the Red Sea - a long wind ward slog that took several weeks (South to North). We arrived in Egypt several days ahead of a number of mono-hulls that left the indian Ocean at the same time as ourselves. We arrived with no damage. A couple of the mono's had damaged their rigging and one had blown a jib. On one of the mono's the wife was refusing to continue their journey as she had enough of sailing on her ear. Despite the powers of the internet I could not find anything to prove to that wife that she had really had a better trip than my wife and family on our cat. Similarly, when we first started sailing cats I was regularly thrashed on passages by a young Aussie couple in their little 30ft mono-hull. They knew their boat inside out and could extract every last fraction of a knot without even thinking about it. Knowing your boat intimately makes a significant difference.

Originally Posted by monte

I'm not sure where you are reading that in the attached quote Polux. 🙈

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

lagoon picked low hanging fruit.

they make most spacius cats, in cheapest possible way. Downside is weight. So, cats are also designed to carry weight.

3.5 T extra weight in L 400 will not kill any speed as it is nothing to kill. But will make racy/fast cruise cats fall behind Lagoon.

Exactly! This observation is no doubt the reason for Monte's "Sephina" performing so close to the Outremer 45/48.

I recently was invited aboard an old Catana 48R, which the new owner was trying to revive. This potentially very fast thoroughbred cat had been loaded with an abundance of cruising gear by the previous owner, and had been turned into a slow, slamming pig of a boat. (Owner's assessment, not mine)

The Laws of Physics! By the way, Arsenelupiga, what do you know about that subject? What was your profession again?

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by Factor

Laws of Physics, weight, hull shape, windage, sail inventory etc etc. Lagoon has beaten the laws of physics they tell us, but everyone else has to comply.

Lagoon? The two boats whose performance was being compared were manufactured by Fountaine Pajot and Leopard (R &C).

But let's not let those facts get in the way of another "Lagoon Bash".

[Bulawayo]

Whole heartedly agree. I'm not a Lagoon person either, but I prefer not to criticise anyones choice of craft, be it a mono or multi. I dont 'need' to prove how someone elses boat performs either. I also dont need to know a persons circumstances nor do I need to know their rationale for their selection. The main thing is that they have a boat that fit their need at that time. Monte has a boat that he selected and all power to him. At the end of the day he has a boat and is sailing - a lot more respect to him for doing that. I have also received help from him - minor but very useful - saved me a lot of bucks.

Originally Posted by tuskie

Lagoon? The two boats whose performance was being compared were manufactured by Fountaine Pajot and Leopard (R &C).

But let's not let those facts get in the way of another "Lagoon Bash".

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by tuskie

Exactly! This observation is no doubt the reason for Monte's "Sephina" performing so close to the Outremer 45/48.

I recently was invited aboard an old Catana 48R, which the new owner was trying to revive. This potentially very fast thoroughbred cat had been loaded with an abundance of cruising gear by the previous owner, and had been turned into a slow, slamming pig of a boat. (Owner's assessment, not mine)

The Laws of Physics! By the way, Arsenelupiga, what do you know about that subject? What was your profession again?

i am still physicist... working in it/banking though.

however, i enjoy applying physics & instincts to boats, weekender / coastal cruiser for now...

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by D&D

Now there's an idea!

We could all migrate over to this one...

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ls-148957.html

yup that one makes sense. monos trying to compete with cats get underbuilt these days. around sydney can be lots of wind and this is quite evident looking at masts when people coming back from sail on the ocean. In bay they are fine though.

Wonder why Polux is not participating

[arsenelupiga]

here is another idea for thread

why nearly 100% of monos sail in bays only

In sydney probably 30 % cats goes out on ocean and 1% of monos.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by StuM

Maybe the new main that I've just put on.

Certainly the best possible answer provided so far regarding the comparison between the Leopard and Belize. Thanks Stu.

Our present mainsail on the Oyster only allows us to sail 30 degrees to windward because it's very stretched out, so we're having a new tri-radial cut DYS mainsail made for us by Dolphin Sails this winter. It'll be interesting to see how much windward performance improves.